Rumour: Model 3/Y to lose stalks in 2023 model year

[Midpack]

I once had a Jaguar XF - that car had the flappy paddles that turned with the steering wheel - and whilst turning I found it downright difficult to identify which lever to pull when in manual mode - I used to have to think by picturing the wheel and sort of turning my head a bit and work out just which lever I needed - and by the time I had done that the manoeuvre had been completed - so the drive in manual mode around towns wasn't a particularly great experience - so I just left it in auto mode - So, To have a haptic button for something important like the Indicators just isn't something I'm even going to try because I wont buy one.

I’m willing to give stalkless a try. Most of the Model S & X owners who actually have stalkless seem OK with it, I’m not inclined to give the same weight to people who’ve made up their minds without trying it.

Most of the time initiating turn signals precedes turning, so the wheel is straight - which would make turn signal rotation a non issue. I do realize that’s not the case for a roundabout, which would make it difficult, but I haven’t even noticed if other drivers use turn signals exiting roundabouts. What am I missing?

 

[smogne41]

I’m willing to give stalkless a try. Most of the Model S & X owners who actually have stalkless seem OK with it, I’m not inclined to give the same weight to people who’ve made up their minds without trying it.

Most of the time initiating turn signals precedes turning, so the wheel is straight - which would make turn signal rotation a non issue. I do realize that’s not the case for a roundabout, which would make it difficult, but I haven’t even noticed if other drivers use turn signals exiting roundabouts. What am I missing?

To first order, the only people who own a refreshed S/X had ~$100k of 'confidence' they were going to be fine with stalkless going in. Not that surprising many of them still are really...

 

[Zilla91]

I haven’t even noticed if other drivers use turn signals exiting roundabouts.

I find this statement quite worrying. Do us all a favour and hand back your license, you're a danger to other road users if your observational skills are that bad.

 

[WannabeOwner]

I’m willing to give stalkless a try. Most of the Model S & X owners who actually have stalkless seem OK with it

Bjorn did a video about it ... something along the lines of "I've had the car (A Model-S, back then) for a week and I have made a really determined effort to change mindset / muscle memory to use buttons" ... and that video was mostly negative. But I too an willing to give it a go.

I haven’t even noticed if other drivers use turn signals exiting roundabouts

They definitely do around here (this being a UK thread ...)

They vary around the world, of course. In Australia / New Zealand (I forget which, might be both) there is a requirement to stop before entry (probably in USA too?)

Here you can just progress directly into the roundabout - provided you would not impede other users. If there is traffic approaching the preceding exit - i.e. not yet in the roundabout, but approaching at enough speed that they would have to stop / slow if you pulled out - then you wait. This means that traffic flows very efficiently onto the roundabout - but obviously requires that drivers are familiar with the process Long term drivers encounter them all the time, so that's not a problem. Learners learn. For unfamiliar foreigner visitors, I don't know what they make of it!

I would say majority of our roundabouts are two lanes, the bigger ones 3 or more, and some small ones are single lane. In multi lane roundabouts traffic flows promptly as you would expect (absent specific road marking arrows then nearside lane taking first exit, or straight on, and offside lane taking last exit). But that does require lane discipline and signalling so others know what to expect!

There was a Mythbuster video which found the rate of flow of traffic was higher than alternatives. But they didn't have a UK-style multi-lane test, so my opinion is that what we have here allows even more traffic flow than their test.

But not if none of the users know what to do!

 

[randompixel]

The Highway Code is pretty clear. Always signal, even at mini-roundabouts.

186
Signals and position. When taking the first exit to the left, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

• signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
• keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

• signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
• keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
• signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

When taking any intermediate exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

• select the appropriate lane on approach to the roundabout
• you should not normally need to signal on approach
• stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout
• signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

188
Mini-roundabouts. Approach these in the same way as normal roundabouts. All vehicles MUST pass round the central markings except large vehicles which are physically incapable of doing so. Remember, there is less space to manoeuvre and less time to signal. Avoid making U-turns at mini-roundabouts. Beware of others doing this.

It is the latter style that seems most problematic for having a non-upright wheel.

 

[MrBadger]

There was a Mythbuster video which found the rate of flow of traffic was higher than alternatives. But they didn't have a UK-style multi-lane test, so my opinion is that what we have here allows even more traffic flow than their test.

I use to work with highly experienced road traffic engineers and, not that I ever used it, do have a qualification in roundabout design software used to optimise traffic flows. Fundamentally, a roundabout is normally the most efficient form of junction control unless there is a significant number of (UK) 'right hand turns' required. Where there is a significant amount of cross traffic, roundabouts do suffer, but normally not quite as much as other junction types. But on the whole, unless a roundabout has a large proportion of traffic cutting across other main flowing traffic, a properly designed roundabout (where traffic flow optimisation is a primary design factor) will give better traffic flow numbers (PI's) than other junction types. I also have a few years+ experience in simulating traffic light controlled junctions and traffic modelling in general (of a medium sized UK city), but not as a traffic engineer or modeller per-se.

 

[Jason71]

I’m willing to give stalkless a try. Most of the Model S & X owners who actually have stalkless seem OK with it, I’m not inclined to give the same weight to people who’ve made up their minds without trying it.

Most of the time initiating turn signals precedes turning, so the wheel is straight - which would make turn signal rotation a non issue. I do realize that’s not the case for a roundabout, which would make it difficult, but I haven’t even noticed if other drivers use turn signals exiting roundabouts. What am I missing?

I think you are missing the fact that you are on the UK forum.
Yes 100% you have to signal when you exit a roundabout here (unless you drive a BMW. they are exempt) and we have a lot of roundabouts so for us how you signal on a roundabout is a big deal.
our roads are not typically built on a grid either so signaling for an upcoming junction while on a bend is much more common here than it is for you I would think.

 

[spooksman]

we have a lot of roundabouts

As a point of reference, I do a 7 minute trip to my son's house and encounter 8 roundabouts on that journey!

I'll happily give the 'no stalks' version a try, I'm always up for something new, but when I tried the 8 roundabouts this morning 'pretending' I was using buttons, I would have been in trouble at 4 or 5 of them . The problems were the medium sized ones where I was exiting at 3 o'clock and the wheel was effectively upside down!

However, it might work just fine .

 

[browellm]

Inb4 UK specific edition of the wheel with L and R decals instead of arrows.

 

[WannabeOwner]

I use to work with highly experienced road traffic engineers ...

I worked with a software guy who had previous worked on traffic light software (this was a LONG time ago ...).

"How did you test changes to the traffic light software?"
"We went out on bikes in rush hour to see how badly the traffic was backed up"

The problems were the medium sized ones where I was exiting at 3 o'clock

Yes, I tried that the other day too. On entry I had to initially steer left, to get around the middle circle, and then right to follow it round ... and at that point the amount of "right" I had on was significant - more than 180 degrees.

 

[smogne41]

They vary around the world, of course. In Australia / New Zealand (I forget which, might be both) there is a requirement to stop before entry (probably in USA too?)

Most of our roundabouts in the USA work the correct way where you just yield to traffic already in the circle. There are a few odd-ball ones with stop signs though, but not the norm.

 

[MrBadger]

I worked with a software guy who had previous worked on traffic light software (this was a LONG time ago ...).

"How did you test changes to the traffic light software?"
"We went out on bikes in rush hour to see how badly the traffic was backed up"

We invented optimised traffic light software, before my time though, although I was involved in later versions and replacement. Until recently, most (all in UK) used our software in someone else’s box with someone else’s name on it.

Our ‘bikes’ were just very clever people.

 

[BigNerd]

Maybe Elon is anti-roundabout?

We have a few roundabouts in my area and those make traffic flow so much better... no waiting at lights etc... but pedestrians and bikers sometimes mess it up because they are supposed to cross earlier but use the roundabout instead.

On one of our cars, it has shift paddles and trying to "downshift" while turning makes me wonder how signaling will be.

 

[FastLaneJB]

I suspect given time you’ll eventually get used to where the right button is on the wheel when it’s upside down and in various positions. It could take a bit of time to get there though and ultimately it’s not improving on what we had before so that effort to learn that skill shouldn’t be needed.

I’d be prepared to give it a go, I’m interested to see what the new Performance might end up being if they haven’t just killed it off. I’m fine with the removal of the gear selector stalk but the indicators I don’t think I’ll ever buy into that change.

I’d love to know their reasoning for it and why they feel whatever cost savings or other benefits they make out way the inconvenience of it and potentially lost sales.

 

[pdk42]

I’d love to know their reasoning for it and why they feel whatever cost savings or other benefits they make out way the inconvenience of it and potentially lost sales.

It can’t be cost savings given that they’ve added a colour touch screen in the rear passenger area. It’s more likely ideology based on US driving patterns and unrealistic expectations of FSD. It’ll certainly lose sales. I for one am now thinking of holding onto my 2019 3 for a bit longer in the hope that the charging infrastructure improves and non-Tesla options become viable In a couple more years.

 

[WannabeOwner]

but the indicators I don’t think I’ll ever buy into that change

In my case, I'm happy to give it a go, and to fit 3rd party stalks if I find I hate it.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

The real test will come down to how many people who are unsure about a Tesla and drive several cars before buying. will go for a test drive and experience the potential issue. Even if you could cope after a few days or weeks of use, it feels like the complete opposite of the current test drive experience. You currently get in a Tesla after arriving at the sales centre in your 4 pot diesel BMW and the drive experience is magical, quiet, quick, initial impressions are great. They may now spend the whole test drive trying to get on with a stupid control and the initial impression isn't so great.

The Tesla faithful will still buy, the technol=wannabees will still buy, but there's bound to be a middle ground that won't.

Put another way, nobody who buys a new M3 wouldn't if it had stalks, but there will be people who would have bought if it had stalks but as it doesn't, they don't. The question is, how many. Based on Model s and Model x sales, if its anything like those cars, quite a few..

 

[WannabeOwner]

will go for a test drive and experience the potential issue

How did that work out when the Japanese cars started arrving here with Wiper / Indciator stalks on opposite sides?

I remember periods of time when we had one-Japanese and one-Non-Japanese, and each time Wife and I switched we'd be wipers-on when turning right ...

Didn't stop us buying them though ...

I think that illustrates a significant problem. Anyone who will have a stalk-less Tesla, and also another non-Tesla, will have a lot of difficulty when switching cars. Someone driving only-Tesla will perhaps develop the muscle memory.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

How did that work out when the Japanese cars started arrving here with Wiper / Indciator stalks on opposite sides?

I remember periods of time when we had one-Japanese and one-Non-Japanese, and each time Wife and I switched we'd be wipers-on when turning right ...

Didn't stop us buying them though ...

I think that illustrates a significant problem. Anyone who will have a stalk-less Tesla, and also another non-Tesla, will have a lot of difficulty when switching cars. Someone driving only-Tesla will perhaps develop the muscle memory.

I lived through those days, but not as a car buyer, I was too young. From memory the transition was quite large scale, effectively most cars had indicators on the right as back in the day, most cars in the UK were British designed and built. For some reason those manufactures on mass started to change to the left, maybe it was legislative and requirements for european hologoisation. Japanese cars were some of the latest to change and adopt the left hand drive stalk.

If one manufacturer did it, it would have been a problem, and when Japanese cars became the outlier, they started to change too

 

[Adopado]

Indicating on roundabouts is important. About 20 years ago I was involved in a road accident arising from someone failing to indicate properly on a roundabout... I still have the titanium rod in my left tibia to remind me (2 fractures in tibia and 1 in fibula ... riding a motorbike at the time).

I wouldn't want to sit a UK driving test in a car with this kind of indicator control ... incorrect roundabout procedure can certainly be a failure.