Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[bijan]

I have doubts about capping the voltage a few hundreds of a volt at the top is the reason we are losing so many miles so far from 100% SoC.

My model 3 was consistently getting 0% degradation at all SoC until June then went down to 9% degradation and is now around 5.5% degradation. Again these are at all SoC. Why would capping the car to 4.18V at 100% SoC instead 4.2 give me 5% or even 9% less range at all lower SoC.

Also I got the model 3 cable and my nominal full pack is 72.1kwh whereas Bjorn was getting 74kwh and then 73.5kwh.

That would point to degradation or at least BMS estimating my full pack is now smaller than the original 75kwh.

 

[kavyboy]

What's your battery sticker say? Maybe you have an upgrade?

It's 1055893-0-C, which is a 70. Googling around, those seem to report 218 miles at 90%. It just is what it is, I guess.

 

[sorka]

But you've already gone up the steep hill and charged I presume from Livermore so that's a whole new trip so you get the benefit of coasting down the hill on that trip. Anyway, when I was being routine trips out to the Bay Area, I always noticed the efficiency was much better going that direction. Don't know if it's a combination of tail wind and and hill but it was certainly more efficient going that route than I-80 when heading to Bay Area.

Did I imply in anyway that I stopped to charge????????
Look at the mileage on the screen since last charge and map the distance from 95002 to 95340 via Livermore.

The 262 wh / mile was a slight net headwind. I've had equally efficient drives in both directions.

My best ever was 239 which did have a slight tail wind.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I have to drive around the valley today and charged my P85 to 100%. I haven't charged it to 100% since the dreaded 16.1 update. Currently installed version is 2019.32.12.3. I started w/ 216 miles @ 90% and charged at 60A in my garage. She charged up to 240 miles @ 100%, same as a few months ago. No fans at all during charging or even after. Ambient temps in my garage were about 75º-80º. I've lost somewhere in the vicinity of 2-5 miles in the last year.

Lifetime loss based on rated range (EPA 5-cycle): 25 miles (9.4%) vs 265 when new
Lifetime loss based on ideal range (EPA 2-cycle): 23 miles (7.6%) vs 301 when new

 

[Chaserr]

I have doubts about capping the voltage a few hundreds of a volt at the top is the reason we are losing so many miles so far from 100% SoC.

My original data showed cell voltage was:

4.20v @ 100% (I actually reached 4.2v in the past!)
4.00v @ 80% (my daily charge limit so I saw this the most often)
3.93v @ 74%
3.82v @ 61%
3.75v @ 51%
3.65v @ 38%

I didn't know the significance of this data at the time so I didn't keep track of temperature etc, but for old uncapped raw data it should help show how much the battery relies on tiny fractions of a volt. 62% of my battery's capacity came from a decrease in 0.55 volts. The cells aren't allowed to discharge all the way to zero volts, I doubt the BMS ever permitted it to discharged much below 3.5v even at the lowest I ever reached (3%).

 

[bijan]

My original data showed cell voltage was:

4.20v @ 100% (I actually reached 4.2v in the past!)
4.00v @ 80% (my daily charge limit so I saw this the most often)
3.93v @ 74%
3.82v @ 61%
3.75v @ 51%
3.65v @ 38%

I didn't know the significance of this data at the time so I didn't keep track of temperature etc, but for old uncapped raw data it should help show how much the battery relies on tiny fractions of a volt. 62% of my battery's capacity came from a decrease in 0.55 volts. The cells aren't allowed to discharge all the way to zero volts, I doubt the BMS ever permitted it to discharged much below 3.5v even at the lowest I ever reached (3%).

Interesting I believe model 3 goes below 3v near empty. Even assuming 3.5 is empty that's 0.7 volts top to bottom. So I'd expect my 100% voltage to be 4.16v since I'm down 5.5% now 425/449km at 90%, 72.1 nominal kwh vs 76 nominal kwh when new, and thus expect about 0.04/0.7).

I'll go charge and measure voltage. Should have an update by end of tonight.

 

[Droschke]

No, I have the huge frunk. It's rated range - I just saw that setting when I was looking at the new V10 settings screen. My battery model printed on the sticker is for a 70. I've run it down to 8% and to 100% over the years - same numbers. The lowest 100% has ever been in 240. I got distracted at the Casey Jones Museum at the Jackson, TN and came out to 245 miles and a trickle charge. At no time have I ever had a sudden drop in range or anything else that indicates the numbers aren't real. I'm hoping I don't get a shock some day.
I'm going over all that because I do understand that it doesn't look right. Sort of hoping somebody could chime in and explain it.
Anyway... at least a couple of us 70 people are seeing that pattern. It exists.

@kavyboy - Very similar to my car before I got capped by 30 miles overnight. Before capping, my last 100% charge in 2018 was 265 miles. That was the last time I charged to 100%. I did try few times to charge higher than 90% (this was all before being capped), and stopped at around 97-98% with over 260 miles!

 

[Az_Rael]

I have a cable for a 2018 M3 and can read your car.
Your location says Palmdale. Where else do you go?

I am in Palmdale, and mostly commute up to EAFB, so not much outside the AV. I am cool with getting a cable, might make it easier to sort the whole 100% thing vs tying up a public charger trying to meet you somewhere.

Do you have a link for where to get the cable from? I am still at work so haven't really dug in yet to what is needed.

 

[DJRas]

My original data showed cell voltage was:

4.20v @ 100% (I actually reached 4.2v in the past!)
4.00v @ 80% (my daily charge limit so I saw this the most often)
3.93v @ 74%
3.82v @ 61%
3.75v @ 51%
3.65v @ 38%

I didn't know the significance of this data at the time so I didn't keep track of temperature etc, but for old uncapped raw data it should help show how much the battery relies on tiny fractions of a volt. 62% of my battery's capacity came from a decrease in 0.55 volts. The cells aren't allowed to discharge all the way to zero volts, I doubt the BMS ever permitted it to discharged much below 3.5v even at the lowest I ever reached (3%).

Last night I had 2 miles range left at 3.1223 minimum voltage
I charged to 95% (213 miles) at 4.076 maximum voltage

 

[bijan]

This is my voltage level while charging and at 99%. I realize voltage is probably higher while charging than while just sitting there. I'll post the final result at 100% soon.

 

[DJRas]

This is my voltage level while charging and at 99%. I realize voltage is probably higher while charging than while just sitting there. I'll post the final result at 100% soon.View attachment 471248

That is really odd. The cell temperatures are 25C (72F) while charging. Wow!
I saw this morning when I was close to 90% mine was at 39C (102F).

 

[bijan]

That is really odd. The cell temperatures are 25C (72F) while charging. Wow!
I saw this morning when I was close to 90% mine was at 39C (102F).

I'm in Canada it's about 17C outside and I wasn't supercharging just AC at 32amps.

It'll be interesting to see what cell temperature is when AC charging when it's -10C or colder. In my experience car will spend 30 minutes to an hour just warming the battery.

Here are my numbers at 100%. About 4.19v. I'm guessing this shows model 3 recent degradation possibly due to software change is not a voltage cap.

 

[MP3Mike]

That is really odd. The cell temperatures are 25C (72F) while charging. Wow!
I saw this morning when I was close to 90% mine was at 39C (102F).

When Supercharging Bjorn has shown that the Model 3 purposely takes the pack up to ~55C(131F) using the stators to heat it.

 

[faughtz]

In the early days, after the theft, I could charge to “100%”. Tonight my charge terminated at “97%”. At least I was able to describe the deceptive practices of tesla to a prospective buyer while I was waiting.

 

[tinm]

Never enough time to keep track of this gigantic thread, but, a question:

First, some facts:
• 2013 Model S 85kWh
• 110695 miles
• MCU1
• On firmware 2019.32.2.1
• 90% charge = 223mi

Question:
Last night I got the notification that new software was available (first time in a long while). I’ve been avoiding to install it so far, worried this might be The One that caps my range and ruins my life. Is it likely? I assume this would finally put my car into V10. Should I do the install? It’s not like my car has AP or even parking sensors. No Netflix for me. (Most exciting software feature in past 9 months was a Swedish language version of owners manual. Yawn.) Thoughts?

 

[DJRas]

Never enough time to keep track of this gigantic thread, but, a question:

First, some facts:
• 2013 Model S 85kWh
• 110695 miles
• MCU1
• On firmware 2019.32.2.1
• 90% charge = 223mi

Question:
Last night I got the notification that new software was available (first time in a long while). I’ve been avoiding to install it so far, worried this might be The One that caps my range and ruins my life. Is it likely? I assume this would finally put my car into V10. Should I do the install? It’s not like my car has AP or even parking sensors. No Netflix for me. (Most exciting software feature in past 9 months was a Swedish language version of owners manual. Yawn.) Thoughts?

Yes, the new one is V10.
The only possibly useful feature is Spotify.
It is unlikely that V10 will adversely affect you from V9.

 

[Blu Zap]

Did any of those affected by the fires in California get any range back with our boy Elon OTA gracious range increase update? Or at-least mess up and include 85?

source: Tesla to unlock extended range for vehicles affected in CA wildfires

Not sure where they define the line. Here in Marin County just south of the fires, no change. But they couldn't "uncap" my 85kWh battery since they never admitted to capping it!!

 

[Chaserr]

It's not that settled. I am not impacted by batterygate; my range at 100% has held at 254 miles for at least 20k miles/14 months. My resting voltage @ 100% is 4.17-4.19, not 4.2V

It's settled and you confirmed it yourself, your 100% is 4.19v (4.19X is typical for a healthy uncapped and you personally confirm it's possible on the Model 3. @bijan verifies your data as well, so we have double verification now ) You aren't capped. Bjorn is, and others are being tested now. As with the Model S and X the capping of the Model 3 is confirmed to be a volt limit and not all cars are affected. You've helped show some people get capped and some don't get capped, and that randomness is why we're here. You came here to learn why you were spared and others weren't, and contributed your confirmation that some are indeed spared.


More verification is being collected as we speak, but your early confirmation that 4.2v is possible on a Model 3 is more important than you give yourself credit for! It tells us this is probably the same issue across every Tesla ever made save the original Roadsters who are safe from OTA downgrades.

Once again, thank you for your confirmation! You're the first to tell us Model 3 packs are able to fully charge when uncapped.

Never enough time to keep track of this gigantic thread, but, a question:

First, some facts:
• 2013 Model S 85kWh
• 110695 miles
• MCU1
• On firmware 2019.32.2.1
• 90% charge = 223mi

Question:
Last night I got the notification that new software was available (first time in a long while). I’ve been avoiding to install it so far, worried this might be The One that caps my range and ruins my life. Is it likely? I assume this would finally put my car into V10. Should I do the install? It’s not like my car has AP or even parking sensors. No Netflix for me. (Most exciting software feature in past 9 months was a Swedish language version of owners manual. Yawn.) Thoughts?

Don't update a pre-AP Tesla. You have little to gain and potentially much to lose. For the last several years, all Tesla has given older cars is slower MCU performance, made the browser unusable, worsened the UI considerably, and in exchange they've added some baubles like fart programs and 80s video games. This is a consistent problem, not a one-time issue. OTAs make our cars worse, predictably.

If you can't live without farts, risk the update. But weigh the risks - it took weeks for people paying close attention to their cars to discover the voltage capping was intentional and part of an OTA. More people are saying they were capped by v10. In my opinion, I have no reason to ever update again. The only thing that will change my mind is actual improvements - not farts or games, but functional improvements. Like the return of my horsepower and range, a functional browser again, or the return of a configurable UI. Things Tesla has shown for years it has no plans to give back to the older cars they were taken from.

 

[FooFenix]

Sorry for your loss but I LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE that this is now happening to 3's as well. Tesla will have an entire $hit$torm on their hands if they cap every car anyone has bought!!!!!

Well... on the one hand this seems to strengthen the case for the owners of the - supposedly - "SMALL number of OLDER cars"...

... on the other hand this can very well be a break-the-company issue. That would help to explain why they refuse to communicate and seem willing to spend a fortune on an aggressive litigation firm.

As an owner and shareholder I would rather not see Tesla go down because of this. That said, theft and deceit are unacceptable, certainly when they then lie to deny it. Seems many of us would be willing to accept that we'd "lend" some time and performance for them to fix the issue and make us whole, but their line of action makes this increasingly unlikely going forward.

 

[Chaserr]

... on the other hand this can very well be a break-the-company issue.

If Tesla was truthful about it only being "a small number of older cars" they would have fixed it at the beginning of this year and not escalated it to a Class Action or hired outside representation (MoFo) who also happen to be a well known corporate bankruptcy firm. When that news broke I immediately suspected it was going to eventually be every car, and in the months since it's slowly started to look like that was true.

None of us want to see Tesla go down over this - we lose our warranties if they do. They should have - and should be now - tried talking to us before they let it get to the point where we're suing them and the NHTSA is investigating. They're going to lose in the media no matter how it goes, and shareholders will pay the price of Tesla's obstinance.

They can still turn it around. I've said over and over and I still mean it: If Tesla offers us an olive branch we'll take it. I don't think they can afford to repair every battery they need to cover under warranty and when the NHTSA investigation forces them to recall it's going to hurt. But many of us will happily pay them for the opportunity to upgrade to a larger battery, or accept a capped original battery in exchange for the opportunity to upgrade (at cost) our Pre-AP cars to AP, or model 3 owners might choose to accept free FSD or Performance in exchange for an imposed cap. There are many ways Tesla can help offset the problem they've created - many owners need the range they paid for and won't be arm twisted into paying extra just to keep what they already own, but some of us are willing to pay extra for upgrades to help offset their warranty costs. There are a lot of potential upgrades they just won't do that they can offer, and we'll love them for making the offer. BAttery upgrades take 90 seconds and make them thousands of dollars - I will do it and I can't be alone.

We want them to stay afloat and remain a company people aren't afraid to buy from. They should want the same thing, but for some reason they're fighting us and trying to make people afraid of owning their cars. The crazy thing is they still have some time. The NHTSA investigation is just ramping up - right now they're contacting us individually which means it's not a full fledged probe into Tesla yet, they're in the third party data collection phase still. Tesla can still grab this bull by the horns before the bears and the media take notice and start making everyone afraid of OTA downgrades. That's a real possibility thaat will kill new car sales, but it's preventable with some communication.

And that's the problem. Tesla has no communications skills. So they're making things worse.