Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[tga]

They definitely did make a public statement:

“We are revising charge and thermal management settings on Model S and Model X vehicles via an over-the-air software update that will begin rolling out today, to help further protect the battery and improve battery longevity,”

Data that is not analyzed is not information. They need to analyze, test, link it it to results and completely verify, not announce suppositions, or they will certainly be accused of providing misinformation or outright lying if any part or what they reveal should turn out to be wrong.

They have said what they believe they can without running headlong into a legal and PR minefield.

To those impacted, that's a complete non-statement... After my Corp Comm class in my first term of b-school, I could have done a better job.

It's not that hard - "A small percentage of cars may see a slight impact in range as a result of this update. We will be analyzing data from these vehicles and will reach out to the impacted owners with more information soon." Non committal, no (mis-) information, no liability, but at least people won't feel abandoned.

 

[st50maint]

I've found that range mode only helps for short trips in cold weather. (I understand this is different on trips if you have an AWD S or X). So 90% of the time I leave it off because it allows the battery to go to the max allowed temps rather than keeping it more constant.

Jerry33, as you are one of the lowest Wh/m drivers that I am aware of, I am curious if this sudden range loss has affected your car.

 

[tga]

This is very good:
ScanTool OBDLink LX Bluetooth:... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00H9S71LW?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
I use ScanMyTesla app and tmSpy

Thanks. I got an OBDLink LX from Amazon, and a cable from Maxwell Auto Tech. Works great with Scan My Tesla and TM-Spy

Tesla CAN Diagnostic Cable (2012-15 version) – Crimped OBD-II – Maxwell Automotive Technologies
Tesla CAN Diagnostic Cable (2012 - early '15) – Crimped OBD-II | eBay

EDIT - 10 minute install - On my 2014, you can't pull down the cubby with the center console in place. Instead, pull off the trim panel on the passenger side of the footwell, that wraps over the top of the glove box door. Pull straight back away from the dash, no tools needed. Opening the glovebox gives you a better grip. The diagnostic connector is right there at the bottom of the MCU.

 

[VT_EE]

I don’t know how you can witness all this @neroden and still think Tesla is only ”failing to communicate”.

Their actions on their own forum — if true — seem to again suggest sweeping this topic under the rug quite intentionally, which would support more the thesis that they are choosing not to communicate about this, instead of failing to. Having your own forum is quite useful too, because then you can control the message...

As for a speculated $90 million cost in battery replacements, for a company that has been denying much cheaper Yellow Band screen replacements and has been saving toilet paper costs and struggling with service center service volume, do you really think avoiding that warranty cost would not enter their calculations at Tesla?

Besides Tesla is communicating about this. They clearly have a corporate message that amounts to ”nothing to see here”. To me it seems they are sweeping this one under the rug and hoping it stays there, which given the age of the cars it might. The hordes of Model 3 enthusiasts — and its value to the company — are the perfect smokescreen for any such small issues with Model S/X.

They are communicating information about this issue as poorly as every other issue they’ve dealt with. It’s how they operate. To assume a purposeful conspiracy based on their lack of communication on this particular issue is a stretch.

 

[jerry33]

Jerry33, as you are one of the lowest Wh/m drivers that I am aware of, I am curious if this sudden range loss has affected your car.

Starting early last winter, as best I can tell, I went from 4% to 7% down. It's held steady since then. To me it seems as if a few cells were removed from being used. This doesn't appear to be related to 2019.16.X since it happened before that upgrade. Also 7% at 126K miles is what appears to be normal from all the graphs I've seen. (currently 2019.20.2.1).

 

[DJRas]

Starting early last winter, as best I can tell, I went from 4% to 7% down. It's held steady since then. To me it seems as if a few cells were removed from being used. This doesn't appear to be related to 2019.16.X since it happened before that upgrade. Also 7% at 126K miles is what appears to be normal from all the graphs I've seen. (currently 2019.20.2.1).

They do not have a way to selectively bypass bad cells or even modules (bricks). Our 84kWh batteries are made up 16 modules. Each module is made up of 6 blocks wired in series. Each block is 74 batteries connected in parallel. There is a BMS (battery management system) board in each of the 16 modules. They monitor the voltage of each block and the temperature of the coolant flowing in and out.

 

[Whiteblaze]

Anyone affected could you please check if you get sizable Regen at 100 percent indicated SOC....I lost 5 miles rated range after update and that (217 miles) has been stable for last 1000 miles ...however I get good Regen at 100 percent and Full Regen at 98 percent....used to see these dashed lines on the energy graph for quite a while before.

Conclusion: my de-rating has been achieved by Tesla not letting car charge as much as before the update.

I am affected (100% range down from 244 to 211 miles) but my regen is still acting normally at 100% (i.e., not at all.)

 

[Icer]

This is the Internet. communication, transparency are dead simple, if that is the goal.
This reality contributes to the extreme frustration in these situations
*
To do list
Offer an Upgrade to a 100 battery for ~$10K to customers whacked by this update
Not completely fair, but it could work, and not bring down the house

Get a battery rebuild operation going, use people like Ingineer and WK057
Freshened, reconditioned 85's and 100's in a brought back CPO program.
Batteries tested/confirmed by factory gear.
*
This would support the loyal base, keep these great cars on the road,
increase demand for used, and offer a working answer to this Big Fear
A fear that here, is in unintended overdrive.

This goes beyond range anxiety, to Range Manic Depression
If left to burn, can become a wildfire of distrust and loss of faith.

Time to step up, and save the day.

 

[MP3Mike]

They do not have a way to selectively bypass bad cells

It depends on how the cell fails. If it internally shorts out it will blow the fusible link and disconnect that single cell from the rest of the cells in the block.

 

[Guy V]

To those impacted, that's a complete non-statement... After my Corp Comm class in my first term of b-school, I could have done a better job.

It's not that hard - "A small percentage of cars may see a slight impact in range as a result of this update. We will be analyzing data from these vehicles and will reach out to the impacted owners with more information soon." Non committal, no (mis-) information, no liability, but at least people won't feel abandoned.

Except for promising to "reach out" that's very close to what they did say.

It certainly is hard to communicate constructively if you don't yet have a technical handle on the problem.

I really don't think "We'll get back to you on that" is going to smooth any feathers, so that would be futile.

I wouldn't expect them to reach out until they know what the cause of the problem is, who they need to contact, what to tell them about the issue, and what kind of resolution option(s) they can and should offer. In doing the update to prevent further damage I am sure they chose to maximize caution. With more information they probably hope to narrow the scope of those affected and be able to safely back off some from the restrictions of the first update.

There will likely be a range of ways of remediation for those remaining significantly affected, up to battery repair or replacement. I'd much rather have a way to have my battery returned to a "normal" degradation pattern than the sort of class-action settlement that results in a discount coupon on a new car, but that's just me. I predict that one positive result of this will be to establish what that is beyond some fuzzy internal guidelines. Blue-sky suggestions of 500,000-mile lifetimes aren't going to fly anymore.

 

[DJRas]

Let's look at my Tesla CAC (Charge Amperage Capacity) test results another way.
The original 85 kWh pack was rated at 265 miles full charge range and EVERYONE agrees this is based on 295 Wh per mile.
So, 265 × 0.295 = 78.175 kWh USABLE capacity.
The data from the Tesla technician showed that the "nominal fleet-wide degradation" is 231 USABLE full charge range.
So, 231 × 0.295 = 68.145 kWh USABLE capacity.
The BMS data from MY car says I have 60.3 kWh USABLE full charge capacity.
Therefore, MY car has 88.5% of the nominal full charge capacity (60.3/68.145).
Thus MY car should be classified as beyond "normal degradation" (<90% of fleet-wide average).
But, Tesla still will not listen to my argument, share their results of the test criteria (other than verbally) or consider any other option.

Interestingly enough, I have estimated that prior to the 2019.16.1.1 update on May 15 my battery had about 68 kWh capacity. Right at nominal degradation.

I will be filing the arbitration claim.

 

[Guy V]

"The data from the Tesla technician showed that the "nominal fleet-wide degradation" is 231 USABLE full charge range."

That would be formerly.

Obviously that statistic is undergoing change.

 

[DJRas]

"The data from the Tesla technician showed that the "nominal fleet-wide degradation" is 231 USABLE full charge range."

That would be formerly.

Obviously that statistic is undergoing change.

True enough.
But, I believe that a small percentage of cars have been affected severely. So if 5% of the fleet is like mine then the fleet-wide average won't change much.

 

[lightningltd]

Here is how I found out that I had lost a LOT of range
( I lost 15.23% from my max charge of 256 miles, or 18.11% of the original range of 265 miles)
2 days prior to this, I supercharged to 90% and all was well. It charged to 230 miles as usual.

I went to work as normal. After work, I was to start a road trip to take care of some personal business (7,000 miles) as I do every year.
The app popped up and said there was an update. I thought cool, why not? I allowed it to do the update to 2019.16.
After work, everything looked good, so as always with an update, I rebooted both systems with the wheels and buttons.

I then went to the supercharger and plugged in. I was a little surprised when it only got to 80kw before settling in at 50kw charging, but I thought little of it (I was at 60 miles) and went to eat.
I ordered my food, and to my surprise, the app gave me that stupid 20 minute warning, but this time it showed that I was at 80% already! I set the app to 95% charge (Since it is a long run to the first supercharger) and ate quickly (it said I had 40 minutes now).

I got back to the car and the charge was at 93% but was only showing 173 and was at 4kw speed and saying I still had 30 minutes to get to 95%!
Since it is mostly uphill to the next supercharger, I needed the 90% range of 230 miles which gives me about a 55 mile buffer (it was cold and windy).
I set my first destination in the nav. Imagine my shock when the nav system advised me it could not find a route with superchargers!
I had made this trip easily 3 times before.
I immediately called Tesla Support, since this was a SUDDEN extreme loss of range, I thought a battery module had burned out or something.
They transferred me to my SC, who had a tech remote in and run a 'test' (or so he said).
A while later, I got the following text (June 14, 2019):

"I ran the battery health checks and all of those came back good and did not point to any issues. I also inspected the log data and can see that your car is still getting charged the same amount, its just that the calculated rated range number has changed. This number, as stated, a calculation of the expected mileage which can and will change based on many factors. At this time we do not see any issues with your vehicle".

I responded with thank you, then re-responded a few seconds later that it could not be right, since the RATED range is a CONSTANT. All I got back as a reply was have a great weekend.

Looking at the responses others have gotten that are almost VERBATUM to the one I got, it seems like they were ready for this.

This is NOT acceptable, and they OWE us a better explanation and a PROPER solution (like FIX IT if it is a SAFETY or FIRE concern, or ROLL BACK the change if it is a longevity concern (and I reject the 231 average fleetwide degradation claim, since they will not SHOW us their methods or data. Are they going by the CONSTANT (rated)range or their 'predicted' range?

This is beyond ridiculous. We need the range back we paid REAL MONEY for and had BEFORE the update.
.

 

[faughtz]

Here is how I found out that I had lost a LOT of range
( I lost 15.23% from my max charge of 256 miles, or 18.11% of the original range of 265 miles)
2 days prior to this, I supercharged to 90% and all was well. It charged to 230 miles as usual.

I went to work as normal. After work, I was to start a road trip to take care of some personal business (7,000 miles) as I do every year.
The app popped up and said there was an update. I thought cool, why not? I allowed it to do the update to 2019.16.
After work, everything looked good, so as always with an update, I rebooted both systems with the wheels and buttons.

I then went to the supercharger and plugged in. I was a little surprised when it only got to 80kw before settling in at 50kw charging, but I thought little of it (I was at 60 miles) and went to eat.
I ordered my food, and to my surprise, the app gave me that stupid 20 minute warning, but this time it showed that I was at 80% already! I set the app to 95% charge (Since it is a long run to the first supercharger) and ate quickly (it said I had 40 minutes now).

I got back to the car and the charge was at 93% but was only showing 173 and was at 4kw speed and saying I still had 30 minutes to get to 95%!
Since it is mostly uphill to the next supercharger, I needed the 90% range of 230 miles which gives me about a 55 mile buffer (it was cold and windy).
I set my first destination in the nav. Imagine my shock when the nav system advised me it could not find a route with superchargers!
I had made this trip easily 3 times before.
I immediately called Tesla Support, since this was a SUDDEN extreme loss of range, I thought a battery module had burned out or something.
They transferred me to my SC, who had a tech remote in and run a 'test' (or so he said).
A while later, I got the following text (June 14, 2019):

"I ran the battery health checks and all of those came back good and did not point to any issues. I also inspected the log data and can see that your car is still getting charged the same amount, its just that the calculated rated range number has changed. This number, as stated, a calculation of the expected mileage which can and will change based on many factors. At this time we do not see any issues with your vehicle".

I responded with thank you, then re-responded a few seconds later that it could not be right, since the RATED range is a CONSTANT. All I got back as a reply was have a great weekend.

Looking at the responses others have gotten that are almost VERBATUM to the one I got, it seems like they were ready for this.

This is NOT acceptable, and they OWE us a better explanation and a PROPER solution (like FIX IT if it is a SAFETY or FIRE concern, or ROLL BACK the change if it is a longevity concern (and I reject the 231 average fleetwide degradation claim, since they will not SHOW us their methods or data. Are they going by the CONSTANT (rated)range or their 'predicted' range?

This is beyond ridiculous. We need the range back we paid REAL MONEY for and had BEFORE the update.
.

Don’t forget your loss in performance.

 

[xbox4me62]

Don’t forget your loss in performance.

What’s the max voltage per cell the pack is charged to after the update? For Tesla to just release an update such major changes with vague communication does not inspire confidence. If there is an issue with the battery packs they should just repair the vehicles and retain goodwill of the customer. I would have been upgrading to the new model S the day it’s announced but if this is how they treat their customers I’ll gladly go back to a cheap leaf or Prius I have control over

This is pretty ridiculous for those affected. These are early adopters too who went out on a limb to support Tesla in their earlier days too.

 

[faughtz]

Here’s where I am, note the capacity, the pack voltage, and the cell voltages.

What’s the max voltage per cell the pack is charged to after the update? For Tesla to just release an update such major changes with vague communication does not inspire confidence. If there is an issue with the battery packs they should just repair the vehicles and retain goodwill of the customer. I would have been upgrading to the new model S the day it’s announced but if this is how they treat their customers I’ll gladly go back to a cheap leaf or Prius I have control over

This is pretty ridiculous for those affected. These are early adopters too who went out on a limb to support Tesla in their earlier days too.

 

[electronblue]

They are communicating information about this issue as poorly as every other issue they’ve dealt with. It’s how they operate. To assume a purposeful conspiracy based on their lack of communication on this particular issue is a stretch.

Conspiracy is too big a word.

Corporate communications policy avoiding things they have been concluded negative for the company and resulting chosen lack in transparency is what I think is possibly happening — basically a corporate culture of silence.

It would be super easy for Tesla to be open about this and so many other negative issues and they rarely are, yet anything even slightly positive gets major and excessive attention from them.

It is a choice, I think.

 

[lightningltd]

Don’t forget your loss in performance.

It was very noticeable as well as The degraded regeneration.
In fact it damn near caused an accident today when some asshat decided to push their way onto the freeway and I had a car on my left. I gave it full acceleration and it barely got out of the way.
Still better than my old four-cylinder gas car but it scared the piss out of me and my wife.

This is beyond just safety this is just plain stupid.

Somebody’s trying to save a buck. It’s not gonna cost them that much to replace whatever failed module they need to replace if one is bad.
They need to start rebuilding batteries and just exchange them before somebody gets killed because of this.

 

[Leeboy22001]

Just made up a diagnostic cable, bought an OBDLink LX dongle, and Scan my Tesla is telling me I have a nominal battery pack of 49.5kWh, and 46.7kWh usable battery !.. only 45k miles on the clock. That's a 20% drop in usable battery !