Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Oldschool496]

defect

Minor defects in one moment at the battery factory, now that is something I can grasp. Those minor defects in chemistry reverberate out over long periods of time. This crowd the Tesla crowd for the most part watch their cars like hawks. I know I surely do.

These 85s though having sudden impact after a software update, thats no defect, thats dialing down for a reason or multitude of reasons in someone's cars history to save perhaps one fire in a far off land or perhaps a few and future ones. Could there be more reasons?

 

[jaitch]

.....They have no qualms about it either, and act like they still own your car.

It is true. We have no input on software update, no contract review, no information re what happens until after the event. If you have work done at at a service centre you at least give them your approval to modify your property and agree to pay if necessary. Seems like an odd legal issue to me.

I was annoyed when Teslia demodified, during some warranty work, my amazing anti-noise/anti-rubbing cable device that I had fitted in my frunk (a piece of silicon that stops the braided washer hose tube ratcheting on the sharp wing/fender edge). I did not give them permission to remove my modification nor take possession of my piece of silicon tubing! Side issue - just venting. It's a good mod by the way.

Teslia don't own my car but behave like they do and every one else's in some instances.

James

 

[sorka]

The odd part is Tesla setting the top limit lower.

It's not odd if they're trying to prevent fires. If dendrites are forming and they become long enough, they can short the cell. The higher the SOC the more energy will be expended when shorting. If hot enough, it can cause nearby cells to com-bust as well and then you get a run away battery fire.

Of course the charge cap should be a temporary thing until they can get your battery in for repair and they should be transparent on what your true charge SOC actually is.

 

[sorka]

It affects my normal use in that it is a performance reduction.
90% SOC isn’t 90% anymore, let alone 100% not being 100%.

But if you charge to 100% all the time it'll be close to a real 90, right? Of course you can't charge to 100% for the few times you really need that range which sucks.

If I end up getting stuck with the update and I lose 10%, I'll just keep the slider at 100% which is really 90%. I charge to 90% for my commute which is 130 miles each way. I can do it on 80% but 90% leaves me with enough to get back up in an emergency if I'm as much as 90% of the way to work and I have to turn around and come right home.

 

[faughtz]

But if you charge to 100% all the time it'll be close to a real 90, right? Of course you can't charge to 100% for the few times you really need that range which sucks.

If I end up getting stuck with the update and I lose 10%, I'll just keep the slider at 100% which is really 90%. I charge to 90% for my commute which is 130 miles each way. I can do it on 80% but 90% leaves me with enough to get back up in an emergency if I'm as much as 90% of the way to work and I have to turn around and come right home.

I also can’t charge to true 100%, 4.2v per cell, to get the higher level of performance/acceleration.

 

[DJRas]

But if you charge to 100% all the time it'll be close to a real 90, right? Of course you can't charge to 100% for the few times you really need that range which sucks.

If I end up getting stuck with the update and I lose 10%, I'll just keep the slider at 100% which is really 90%. I charge to 90% for my commute which is 130 miles each way. I can do it on 80% but 90% leaves me with enough to get back up in an emergency if I'm as much as 90% of the way to work and I have to turn around and come right home.

Except... that last 10% will take an exra 30 - 45 minutes (at 3kW in the end)

 

[DILIE]

View attachment 428665

I cannot believe R2D2 just sat there by the bus stop and didn't do anything to help!

 

[Moorebid]

Except... that last 10% will take an exra 30 - 45 minutes (at 3kW in the end)

More like 60-75 minutes (at 1-2 kW in the end) now, based upon my last supercharge 5 days ago (I didn't get an exact measurement of time — it was a shade over 2 hours to reach 100%, but I started from 30% — and it still gets to 90% fairly quickly, but that last 10%… oof!).

 

[dark cloud]

No range loss for me yet, just got 2019.24.1 and still have 364 km at 90%. The only change suggested with the software update is the updated sketch pad which I have never used before, but I thought I would put it to use and do my best to help you guys out:

 

[lightningltd]

@wk057 do you have a way to clear the faults in the BMS?
I am wondering if clearing them would allow the charge to go back to normal, forcing the BMS to re-evaluate.
For all we all know, the issue could be its reaction to some old stale fault from quite a while ago, which may or may not be an issue anymore.
I DID have my inverter and motor replaced last year due to a full failure which also depleted the 12v battery among other things.
I wonder if it created a fault at that time that never cleared that the new firmware is picking up causing the BMS to limit power..
Also, I get the power limit line around 300kw no matter what my stare of charge when accelerating. No more flooring it to get on the freeway.
Hard to speculate when we are getting ZERO information from Tesla

 

[dark cloud]

....The regen condition of 0.8V for (I guess) 50kW is a fair amount that could well trigger the condition..

A good question - lets assume its because of li plating. I am not a specialist of the topic but to my understanding there is a two step strategy in that case:

2) recharge with high current pulses (regen?) that will melt the plating back (see attached article for more info)

Researchers “heal” destructive dendrite growth in lithium-metal batteries

It would be interesting to know if regen is not limited (particularly when cold and partially charged) for the affected vehicles to confirm that Tesla indeed is implementing dendrite healing protocol..

Maybe it’s my imagination, and I don’t have any data before /after to back it up, but does anyone else notice regen seem a little stronger with 2019.24.1?

 

[David99]

These 85s though having sudden impact after a software update, thats no defect, thats dialing down for a reason or multitude of reasons in someone's cars history to save perhaps one fire in a far off land or perhaps a few and future ones. Could there be more reasons?

The software reduced the range more or less suddenly but it certainly is not something that happened to the batteries of those car at that time. What's new is the software being able to detect the issue and react to it. But the underlying condition was certainly there before.

It is limited to a small amount of cars, so it cannot be a normal battery aging condition. If it was a normal thing with Lithium batteries, all cars would be affected. Something went wrong with these cars. It's not age, it's not a certain use pattern.

Legal actions will probably the only way to get Tesla to reveal what is going on.

 

[Blu Zap]

The software reduced the range more or less suddenly but it certainly is not something that happened to the batteries of those car at that time. What's new is the software being able to detect the issue and react to it. But the underlying condition was certainly there before.

It is limited to a small amount of cars, so it cannot be a normal battery aging condition. If it was a normal thing with Lithium batteries, all cars would be affected. Something went wrong with these cars. It's not age, it's not a certain use pattern.

Legal actions will probably the only way to get Tesla to reveal what is going on.

The software limit on charging level is a defense against an issue with these 85kWh batteries. While it is likely a safety precaution, it covers up the real issue. There is a problem with these batteries charging to their full capacity, whatever that may be, after many years of use. But since Tesla has an unlimited mile 8 year warranty on these batteries, they are trying to do two things. 1. Keep them from catching fire. 2. Avoid having to replace these faulty batteries on warranty. They only need to buy a few more years to be out of the warranty replacement responsibility. The real issue is that Tesla discovered a problem with these batteries and are avoiding the warranty responsibility.

 

[IngTH]

1) avoid charging in hot and with high voltages which would cause the situation to get worse

No, concerning temperature, the opposite is true. The new thermal management with higher charging temperatures will help to reduce Li-plating.

 

[PetriKarj]

No, concerning temperature, the opposite is true. The new thermal management with higher charging temperatures will help to reduce Li-plating.

Thats what I said in 2), i.e. short high current burst could melt the leaves back to the core.

 

[Droschke]

Something went wrong with these cars.

I know we are speculating, but assuming that is indeed the case then we might be looking at the defective batteries.

 

[Droschke]

The new thermal management with higher charging temperatures will help to reduce Li-plating.

@IngTH, would you elaborate is bit more?

The new thermal management with higher charging temperatures will help to reduce the existing Li-plating or the new Li-plating?

 

[IngTH]

i.e. short high current burst could melt the leaves back to the core.

The study you linked is more related to Li-metal electrodes. Pulses from regen braking (same for boost phase at SuC) at low temperatures are part of the problem, not the solution.

 

[Droschke]

The software limit on charging level is a defense against an issue with these 85kWh batteries. While it is likely a safety precaution, it covers up the real issue. There is a problem with these batteries charging to their full capacity, whatever that may be, after many years of use. But since Tesla has an unlimited mile 8 year warranty on these batteries, they are trying to do two things. 1. Keep them from catching fire. 2. Avoid having to replace these faulty batteries on warranty. They only need to buy a few more years to be out of the warranty replacement responsibility. The real issue is that Tesla discovered a problem with these batteries and are avoiding the warranty responsibility.

Right on. Regardless of what's happening to these batteries in the technical detail, which Tesla has not disclosed, your post sums up their plan with a great plausibility.

 

[IngTH]

The new thermal management with higher charging temperatures will help to reduce the existing Li-plating or the new Li-plating?

Both is true. But don't expect too much from reversible effect.