Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[VT_EE]

I can't say for the Model 3 since I have not charged to 100% on that. However, as several people noted on a Model S there should be NO regen at true 100% (no green at all). What I experienced was very slight regen at 100%. This software range limitation Tesla has imposed seems to have changed the behavior of regen.

It sounds like they are doing a major rewrite of your BMS based on all the changes you are seeing. I have a feeling that once the dust settles, you will have most of this sudden range loss back. Here’s hoping.

 

[tga]

The regen you’re describing is exactly how it works on the Model 3. It gradually increases as you drive. At 100% battery charge, there is virtually no regen at all.

It's also how the S has always worked. You've never had regen right after a 100% charge, even back in the v8 days. How can you regen when the battery is already full? Where would the electricity go? I've also seen 100% charges stop at 99% occasionally long ago - that's not necessarily a 2019.16.x thing either.

Long term I hope Tesla adds an option to warm the battery prior to charging. So if you schedule a charge at midnight the first 15 mins can be spent warming and then the charge commences.

Seems like a no-brainer for Tesla to pre-heat the battery for 15 to 30 minutes when plugged in and a scheduled charge is imminent.

This is how it works today, and how it's worked for years. If the battery is too cold to safely charge when you plug in (or when a scheduled charge time hits), the battery heater will turn on. The battery will not start charging until it's warm enough to safely charge. It will gradually increase the charge rate as the battery warms further.

My car has sat outside (and charged outside) for 3 NH winters with a few nights to -20F, with no sign of plating or capacity loss.

This is why 120V charging is mostly worthless in the cold north - the 1.5kW available from a 120V outlet won't make a dent in warming the battery (the battery heater pulls 6kW). It'll work if the battery is already warm from a long drive, but if you let it cool, you're SOL. To run the battery heater and charge, you need at least 6kW (14-30/10-30 or better)

I suppose they could decide that they are not heating the battery enough before charging and raise the preheat setpoints to further protect the battery.

Interesting that Tesla now pre-warms the battery on the way to the Supercharger. Seems that fast charging is the biggest culprit and it's important to have a warm battery to minimise plating. Future cars will be much better placed with these changes Tesla has now made. Just a question of what they are going to do with these older cars & batteries....

IIRC, on-route warmup was billed as a means to improve supercharging speeds; there was no discussion of protecting the battery. I wonder if this is only needed for later battery chemistries or V3 superchargers; I haven't seen any change in my SC speeds/profile.

 

[Matias]

Also to me the Tesla communications reflect that they are combatting against lithium plating.

They communicate two key messages;
Revised thermal management
Improved battery longevity

Lithium plating occurs when the battery is charged in cold and with high current (=thermal management)

When battery is prewarmed before supercharging (recent fw update) its less prone to lithium plating

When battery is not charged to 4.2v then its less likely to acquire lithium plating and hence max charge voltage must be reduced (recent fw update)

So the common nominator for reduced capacity could be that those packs commoncly charged in cold are affected ?

Would be interesting to know if affected batteries are often charged in temps <15C (<59F)....

I live in Finland, car is charged outside and my four years old S85D is not affected.

 

[Droschke]

I live in Finland, car is charged outside and my four years old S85D is not affected.

You don't supercharge?

 

[IngTH]

Lithium plating occurs when the battery is charged in cold and with high current (=thermal management)

Li-plating may happen at any temperarture and SOC at fastcharging currents from supercharging or recuperation.
But of course, the colder battery, the higher the probability.

When battery is not charged to 4.2v then its less likely to acquire lithium plating and hence max charge voltage must be reduced (recent fw update)

At higher SOC charge current is reduced! The main reason why they have to reduce the EOCV is the instability of the cathode. Of course Li-plating is reduced too, bcs. the CC/CV threshold is lower.

There may be cylindric cell specific reasons too (mech. tension when rolled -> danger of dentrites)!

 

[electronblue]

This thread is disturbing. I hope some of the affected owners will try arbitration. Owners have to take action...or accept this as the new normal.

GLA

Isn’t this completely ”on character” for Tesla the company, though?

This is not the first time something like this has happened. Not even the second time.

People generally have woken up to this fact at their own pace but I think a lot of folks would agree by now this is simply the way Tesla operates and has done for years now.

This is the Tesla normal — and it is not new.

 

[Droschke]

Li-plating may happen at any temperarture and SOC at fastcharging currents from supercharging or recuperation.
But of course, the colder battery, the higher the probability.


At higher SOC charge current is reduced! The main reason why they have to reduce the EOCV is the instability of the cathode. Of course Li-plating is reduced too, bcs. the CC/CV threshold is lower.

There may be cylindric cell specific reasons too (mech. tension when rolled -> danger of dentrites)!

Is Tesla using the wrong cathode?

What do other EV's use?

Do you know if other EV's also having the Li-Plating issue?

What's your opinion?

 

[Matias]

Sorry if i sound a newbie but isnt the range based on how you recently drive? I thought if you foot it all on your last drive, the GOM range will be less.

no

 

[Matias]

You don't supercharge?

Rarely. I guess approximately 10 SCs totally.

 

[IngTH]

Is Tesla using the wrong cathode?

YES! No other responsible manufacturer is using it!

Its not just only about the tolerance against Li-plating (and other aging process), but crash safety too:

NCM has a lot of advantages compared to NCA!

 

[electronblue]

Anyone with a yellowing MCU screen may not be at all surprised Tesla could be pushing parts beyond their specs and/or abhorring the use of automotive-grade materials?

 

[VT_EE]

YES! No other responsible manufacturer is using it!

Its not just only about the tolerance against Li-plating (and other aging process), but crash safety too:

View attachment 424958

NCM has a lot of advantages compared to NCA!

What are the pros for using NCA in vehicles? Tesla chose NCA over NCM for their vehicles for some reason, and I doubt it is because they just wanted to be different. Besides, don’t they use NMC in Powerewalls?

 

[faughtz]

Li Plating is not the reason folks here are suffering from "restriction". It's software that is limiting the maximum charge. Those here had no issues before the software update. The battery charged full when needed and they got the range then that they can no longer get now.

But the s/w changes may be a response to Li plating.

 

[IngTH]

What are the pros for using NCA in vehicles?

Costs! And if you don't care about safety and hidden reserves for aging: Energy density!

 

[Dave46]

Anyone figure out what the common thread here is on range loss? I have an 85D built in February, 2016. I have done all the software updates and I have not seen the range loss. My car has 59k on it.

Some of the common elements are battery part number, # of fast DC charges, total miles driven and firmware 2019.16.x or later (there could be more). Also the average drop in capacity is 12%.

Tesla has not told us the values or limits of these elements that trigger the decline in capacity. Clearly some owners are not seeing the decrease.
YMMV

 

[DJRas]

Anyone figure out what the common thread here is on range loss? I have an 85D built in February, 2016. I have done all the software updates and I have not seen the range loss. My car has 59k on it.

Nope... i wish i could.
I have 09/2014 S 85 with now 135,000 miles. I have been seriously impacted. I do SuC a lot. Now 2x per day because of my range loss. Fron ScanMyTesla I have DC charged for 30,000+ kWh and AC charged for 15,000+ kWh.
A friend (also on this forum) has a 05/2014 S 85 with now 210,000. His car show DC charges 37,000+ and AC charges 22,000 kWh. Yet his car has not been affected and his car shows 68kWh full pack and mine shows 64kWh now.
His can be considered "normal " degradation where mine cannot.

 

[Dave46]

Nope... i wish i could.
I have 09/2014 S 85 with now 135,000 miles. I have been seriously impacted. I do SuC a lot. Now 2x per day because of my range loss. Fron ScanMyTesla I have DC charged for 30,000+ kWh and AC charged for 15,000+ kWh.
A friend (also on this forum) has a 05/2014 S 85 with now 210,000. His car show DC charges 37,000+ and AC charges 22,000 kWh. Yet his car has not been affected and his car shows 68kWh full pack and mine shows 64kWh now.
His can be considered "normal " degradation where mine cannot.

What is your battery part number? Is it the same as your friend's?
The number is on a sticker on the front right side of the battery.

 

[Big Earl]

Li-plating may happen at any temperarture and SOC at fastcharging currents from supercharging or recuperation.
But of course, the colder battery, the higher the probability.


At higher SOC charge current is reduced! The main reason why they have to reduce the EOCV is the instability of the cathode. Of course Li-plating is reduced too, bcs. the CC/CV threshold is lower.

There may be cylindric cell specific reasons too (mech. tension when rolled -> danger of dentrites)!

According to the various battery longevity studies I've been reading the past couple of days, lithium plating is most likely in all-graphite anode batteries (like the 85 kWh and other earlier packs). I've seen nothing that specifically references NCA chemistry compared to others.

 

[electronblue]

Isn’t this completely ”on character” for Tesla the company, though?

This is not the first time something like this has happened. Not even the second time.

People generally have woken up to this fact at their own pace but I think a lot of folks would agree by now this is simply the way Tesla operates and has done for years now.

This is the Tesla normal — and it is not new.

I wonder what you disagreed with me @Zhelko Dimic here?

Even without considering other types of precedents, there are at least two very clear cases like this kWh/performance limiting in Tesla’s past.

Limiting number of full performance launches on Tesla Performance models via firmware:

Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

Limiting DC charging speed based on DC charging counters via firmware:

If you fast charge, Tesla will permanently throttle charging

Both were done silently and only came to light through customer research such as this thread.

What makes you think this is not normal for Tesla?

 

[SmartElectric]

What are the pros for using NCA in vehicles? Tesla chose NCA over NCM for their vehicles for some reason, and I doubt it is because they just wanted to be different. Besides, don’t they use NMC in Powerewalls?

My Smart ED is NMC battery cells and the weight per kWH is nearly double that of our original 2013 Model S.

Our 85S has the original A spec battery pack with the limited 88kW maximum supercharging rate. Still at 97% original capacity.

NCA has significant power to weight and cost advantages.