Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Ferrycraigs]

I have an original 2013 Model S85. On 5C day when car has been sitting and then driven a short distance to a supercharger the maximum rate is absolutely around 30kW. It’s easy to see this in my car because I have the old pre autopilot screen that shows the yellow dotted line for regen maximum. If the maximum regen is capped lower than the maximum 60 with a yellow line I absolutely see slower supercharging rates. Tesla charging behaviour is closely aligned with battery temperature. It takes real effort to warm a battery sufficient to get good charging speeds. See Bjørn Nyland YouTube where he had a variety of Tesla and non-Tesla EVs in Norway. Tons of detailed charging graphs with excellent commentary. That’s how I educated myself. But I don’t expect other owners to be as geeky as me. My point is the original wiki post of this thread covers cold battery vs capped voltage.

I appreciate you are replying to a previous comment, (and I agree all your points) but for the benefit of newer readers to this thread, clearly the post is replying to comments on a previous post talking about charging speeds, which is Chargegate. This thread is about battery capping, ie Batterygate. I hope it will be helpful to those wishing to talk about charging speeds, to point out that they may be Off Topic and more suitable on a different thread. (If there even is a separate chargegate thread? There certainly seems enthusiasm to discuss it). We are already in excess of 8000 posts on this thread, and I think most people would agree that’s way too many and now well beyond workable, so this is really just a plea to try and encourage limiting posts to capping issues and not be tempted to drift into the closely related charge speed issues. And yes, I accept, completely, I am guilty of having posted several off topic replies myself. Ironically this is probably another one! Does that makes me a hypocrite? Undoubtedly yes. Guilty as charged. I think the nicer term is poacher turned gamekeeper.

 

[omarsultan]

I would imagine chargergate and batterygate are both spawned by Tesla's apparent desire to "protect" the battery pack through SW updates that have changed the behavior of our cars, so guess I am less concerned with the purity of the thread--they seem related.

 

[sorka]

At 90% max battery ready, I maxed out at 437KW. This is 21KW lower than the best I ever saw when it was upgraded to Ludicrous at 19K miles. and 21KW more than the best I ever saw with Insane right before upgrading to Ludicrous. So I've lost exactly 50% of the ludicrous power upgrade 85K miles ago. Not a huge deal. I'd prefer to not have lost any power but this is a battery powered car so it's gonna happen just like losing some range even though Tesla never disclosed that aspect of degradation.

And before anyone goes off saying that gas powered cars lose horsepower over time, it's completely false as long as the car is maintained and in fact, nearly all ICE cars will make more power when they have some real miles on them than when they were brand new. The only other exception in my case is my 2009 Prius with 316K miles. It's down about 5 hp since it was new because the original nimh battery has a little less power than it was when it was new.

 

[Chaserr]

Power loss isn't an aspect of degradation. Not like that at least. Internal resistance will reduce it some over time but this much is not possible without a failed battery. You are power capped - capping capacity caps power and can't be avoided.

 

[MP3Mike]

Power loss isn't an aspect of degradation. Not like that at least. Internal resistance will reduce it some over time but this much is not possible without a failed battery. You are power capped - capping capacity caps power and can't be avoided.

But he isn't capacity capped.

 

[Keshk]

I appreciate you are replying to a previous comment, (and I agree all your points) but for the benefit of newer readers to this thread, clearly the post is replying to comments on a previous post talking about charging speeds, which is Chargegate. This thread is about battery capping, ie Batterygate. I hope it will be helpful to those wishing to talk about charging speeds, to point out that they may be Off Topic and more suitable on a different thread. (If there even is a separate chargegate thread? There certainly seems enthusiasm to discuss it). We are already in excess of 8000 posts on this thread, and I think most people would agree that’s way too many and now well beyond workable, so this is really just a plea to try and encourage limiting posts to capping issues and not be tempted to drift into the closely related charge speed issues. And yes, I accept, completely, I am guilty of having posted several off topic replies myself. Ironically this is probably another one! Does that makes me a hypocrite? Undoubtedly yes. Guilty as charged. I think the nicer term is poacher turned gamekeeper.

Batterygate and chargegate are 2 faces of same coin, Sir

 

[mvotb]

Excellent, now explain what gives Tesla the right to unilaterally change the cars battery capacity and performance, that THEY sold to the owners, to extend the batteries life. Can't wait for the answer.

Does anyone have an idea why Mike answers other peoples posts but not mine?

 

[dhanson865]

Didn’t the EV article specifically specify that Bjorn thought they had capped the bottom, not the top? If so of course the battery would still be showing 4.2V.

And the obvious question; what is the primary advantage of capping the bottom rather than the top?

Hiding capacity at the top helps more in hot climates, hiding capacity at the bottom helps more in cold climates.

Every EV does both but I could see varying the bias in countries with consistently colder climate. Or even shifting the bias up and down the SOC range by season (hide more in the top during summer, hide more in the bottom during winter).

I'm not saying I have evidence of any car doing so, just thinking out loud a bit.

 

[DJP31]

It's all going to be in the email I send the service adviser as a receipt and proof for before vs after.

No doubt you’ll have a hard copy for them to read and acknowledge for when they say they can’t find the email.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

Batterygate and chargegate are 2 faces of same coin, Sir

I agree completely that they are closely related but one, batterygate, relates only to the capping of the battery and only affects pre facelift cars with non-silicone cell batteries. The main effect of which is Loss of Range (the title of this thread). Chargegate relates to slow charge speeds and affects a far wider range of models and a far greater number of owners and any type of battery but has no effect whatsoever on the range of the vehicle.

Whilst related, I am not sure I agree they are two sides of the same coin; if they were surely everyone affected by one would be affected by the other. And that simply is not the case. There are far more people affected by chargegate than batterygate. But if we can get to 8000+ posts on just batterygate, I dread to think of the size if we start sweeping up chargegate on here as well.

 

[JMG]

As an original owner of a 2015 85D with 121,000 miles (a chargegate and batterygate victim), after seeing some people online indicate that their account now says 8 year, 120k mile battery warranty instead of original unlimited miles I went to check mine. It now says 120k miles.

They can't do that right?

 

[DJRas]

As an original owner of a 2015 85D with 121,000 miles (a chargegate and batterygate victim), after seeing some people online indicate that their account now says 8 year, 120k mile battery warranty instead of original unlimited miles I went to check mine. It now says 120k miles.

They can't do that right?

Right!
Violation of Magnuson Moss Warranty Act

 

[Keshk]

Does anyone have an idea why Mike answers other peoples posts but not mine?

MP3Mike does not answer your question : inconvenient truth.

 

[Keshk]

As an original owner of a 2015 85D with 121,000 miles (a chargegate and batterygate victim), after seeing some people online indicate that their account now says 8 year, 120k mile battery warranty instead of original unlimited miles I went to check mine. It now says 120k miles.

They can't do that right?

Dont you have a hardcopy

 

[PaulusdB]

Today my car is at the Tilburg Service Center for resetting the generation 1 TPMS sensors. (This is not the assembly ‘factory’, but the SeC and Store location just around the corner.)
Of course they ask if there are any other concerns with the car. So I mention Battery and Charge Gate. To my surprise I didn’t get the boilerplate answer/denial. They owned up to the ill effects of the software interventions on my type of car. The message is that Tesla is still sorting out what to do with this group of cars. Apparently some resolution will be reached, but I was advised not to hold my breath...

[EDIT: typo]

 

[Chaserr]

I would imagine chargergate and batterygate are both spawned by Tesla's apparent desire to "protect" the battery pack through SW updates that have changed the behavior of our cars, so guess I am less concerned with the purity of the thread--they seem related.

You don't just have to imaging it. Tesla admitted publicly that 2019.16 was going to reduce capacity and slow down charging, as a direct response to the clusters of fires earlier this year.

Tesla to update battery software following car fires

“As we continue our investigation of the root cause, out of an abundance of caution, we are revising charge and thermal management settings on Model S and Model X vehicles via an over-the-air software update that will begin rolling out today, to help further protect the battery and improve battery longevity.”

The update they are talking about here was 2019.16 - it was released that day. Mr Rasmusson - the man behind the Class Action - was capped less than 24 hours later.

They told us they were implementing chargegate and batterygate before we were downgraded, they just didn't say it clearly enough for us to block the downloads in time.

Apparently some resolution will be reached, but I was advised not to hold my breath...

They realize they are losing both class action and federal criminal investigations over the issue, so while it may take a while they will definitely be forced to replace any hardware that can't be repaired to operate at full volts. I doubt Tesla corporate is telling anyone this right now but plenty of employees can see the writing on the wall and know it's wrong to lie to you.

 

[boywonder]

They realize they are losing both class action and federal criminal investigations over the issue, so while it may take a while they will definitely be forced to replace any hardware that can't be repaired to operate at full volts. I doubt Tesla corporate is telling anyone this right now but plenty of employees can see the writing on the wall and know it's wrong to lie to you.

I hope you’re right.

 

[faughtz]

Dont you have a hardcopy

They did the same to my account and additionally if I open the attached warranty, on page 5, it states 125k miles.

During my arbitration, tesla also had a warranty document that was different than the one applicable to me. Hard to tell if it’s just sloppy or deliberate malfeasance.

 

[omarsultan]

I think the thing with the website is some developer’s f-up. If you click through to the warranty doc, the terms are unchanged.

 

[liamharry]

When I look at my account, bearing in mind I’m UK based with a 2016 MS, I note that they (Tesla) have attached the latest warranty (Dated Feb 2019) which includes the M3 (non existent back in 215/16). Although it does state simply 8 years for the S/X (no mileage restriction) with the exception of the 60kWh version being limited to 125,000 miles.

Also the M3 is limited to either 100,000 or 120,000 miles dependant on version. With mention of the 70% capacity deg limit.

I note the link to the new owner’s manual is the latest North American version, not the original European version.

Thankfully I kept all the hard copies of the originals.