Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[David99]

I didnt use the word "degradation" in my post. Maybe you meant to respond to someone else with your debate about word choice?

My question remains: what other EV provides > 70% of original range available after >250k miles?

Other EVs have nothing to do with this. We are discussion the act of Tesla using software to significantly reduce all kinds of battery parameters after they discovered the battery is deteriorating to a degree where it becomes dangerous. This happened within the warranty period that states 8 years and unlimited miles. Addressing this issue is the whole purpose of this discussion and the lawsuit.

 

[bhzmark]

I just read the original battery warranty for what it says. Which btw doesnt mention 70% originally.

I dont read the battery warranty for what I wish it said if I had an affected battery.

I also dont think the distinction between decreased range coming from condition z as opposed to other battery conditions is legally relevant. It could be if I had more info, but I dont have more info.

If you think I said something that is false or wrong, please indicate with specificity and precision and I'll be happy to respond when I have time.

BHZ,

I'd like to understand your personal values, morals, education, and any other relevant facts that have formed your views on this matter.

From the bazillion pages on this thread, your points of view generally run contrary to the majority (that is great--a lively discussion helps!) but you keep hanging onto the 70% threshold, a very narrow interpretation of Tesla's warranty, approval of Tesla manipulating the batteries that we paid for as part of the purchase price, and one or two others that escape me at the moment. You seem to me to see the world only in black or white. You do not recognize gray or colors of the rainbow. In my threescore plus years rarely are things this complex so easily pigeonholed.

I think everyone not on Tesla's bandwagon has been thoughtful, considerate, deliberative, and detailed in expressing their reasons for their dissatisfaction, disappointment, and general disgust at Tesla's callous and authoritarian principles and business model. (Yes, there has been some hyperbole, but by and large it has been dismissed as just that.)

My personal entreaty to you would be to give us a little glimpse behind your curtain. Explain in depth--be detailed, deliberative, and thoughtful--why our opinions and beliefs are cockeyed. What are we not seeing clearly through our biases and self-interests? Why is it OK for Tesla to usurp our batteries' performance or SC speeds without our consent or without a valid reason for doing so? Why is it OK for the Service Centers to feed us a load of manure about the batteries? Why is it OK for the Service Centers not to show us the diagnostic reports on our batteries? Why is it OK for Tesla to be evasive, clandestine, and silent? This is just a sampling.

I do not know any of the other contributors on this thread personally. But I would guess that quite a few us would like to gain an opposing viewpoint that is on topic and explains the second side to the story.

 

[sorka]

Tesla improved the firmware to reduce logging to MMC storage chip on the MCU. Since you have prevented OTA updates to your car to preserve the behaviour you prefer, you do not benefit from the software improvements made. As has been reported elsewhere on the forums, the reboot behavior matches a storage end of life condition, which may be what you are experiencing.

The reduced logging changes were introduced prior to the version I currently have. Teslafi results in more more traffic but not more logging to flash.

 

[sorka]

Is there anyone here with a P85DL that can confirm they are still pulling 1525 amps under WOT with the current software?

 

[tga]

Teslafi results in more more traffic but not more logging to flash.

This is true if you have it configured to allow the car to sleep. But if it's constantly polling and the car doesn't sleep, I believe logging will continue. Or at least it did, prior to recent updates that may have prevented logging when the car is not driving. I had to change the defaults to allow the car to sleep.

 

[sorka]

This is true if you have it configured to allow the car to sleep. But if it's constantly polling and the car doesn't sleep, I believe logging will continue. Or at least it did, prior to recent updates that may have prevented logging when the car is not driving. I had to change the defaults to allow the car to sleep.

It is configured as such but even if it wasn't, traffic through the REST api is not logged to flash.

 

[tga]

It is configured as such but even if it wasn't, traffic through the REST api is not logged to flash.

I'm not saying the traffic is logged. But I'm pretty sure the car used to log crap (not traffic) when it was awake but idle. If so, keeping it from sleeping means more unnecessary logging.

 

[sorka]

I'm not saying the traffic is logged. But I'm pretty sure the car used to log crap (not traffic) when it was awake but idle. If so, keeping it from sleeping means more unnecessary logging.

Ahh yes. That's true. But no, I have it set to go to sleep. Teslafi sends me emails when it happens.

 

[Chaserr]

A little update on the performance after ~250 mi driving today on the new pack:

Did two cycles of 10% to 90% supercharging today, the outside temperature is about 45F, arrived with the battery warmed. Both sessions started at 60kW and very shortly went to the max of 115kW to 117kW and stayed there until about 38% SoC. then tapered to 85kW till hits 60%, then gradually went down as the SoC went up, by the time I finish at 90%, the charging rate is at 55kW. Both took about 50 minutes to charge from 10% to 90%. Definitely feels a lot faster comparing my old ancient original pack which I had never seen anything exceed 90kW. Supposedly the max charging rate should be around 120kW since both times the Superchargers are almost full, will need to try next time when nobody is using.

The acceleration feels quicker than before when passing on the highway, and the average kW/mi went back down to my old pack's level. In addition, the vampire drain is way lower than before, now only about 5mi per day.

Overall the replacement pack feels like a normally functioning new pack, has no signs of the function being limited.

A little recap of the old pack's behavior after the updated to 2019.16 and before the warning shows up: My car seems to be the one of only a few original 2012 pack that got capped and according to the remote diag, in addition to the 10% range loss, I lost another 10% due to imbalance, the service rep. did show me how to rebalance the battery and the range went back up a little after a couple cycles of charging. But after updating to 40.2.3, I can clearly see the range went back down to the previous level, not sure if that's also because of balancing, could also be the reason triggers the replacement.

Thank you! This is at least as good as the old pre-batterygate gimps and considering how cold it is right now you'll probably see better numbers in the summer than we ever had.

 

[bhzmark]

Not on my phone now, here is a more detailed response.

Q: why our opinions and beliefs are cockeyed.
A: I haven't labeled them with such a generalization. i usually respond with specific facts and evidence or law -- usually just the language from the actual warranty.

Q: What are we not seeing clearly through our biases and self-interests?
A: Again, I make specific responses to specific statements that I disagree with and my writing speaks for itself. If you disagree with any of criticisms, quote them and explain yourself with specificity.

Q: Why is it OK for Tesla to usurp our batteries' performance or SC speeds without our consent or without a valid reason for doing so?
A: They already did so from day one. The BMS reads many variables of the battery and responds accordingly. How it responds changes over time due to the condition of the battery itself, as well what the BMS finds about the battery and how it evaluates the information that it finds. condition Z is just a new bit of data about the battery. My speculation, I could very well be wrong, is that condition Z is some form of lithium plating and the BMS now senses this condition and adjusts the battery to mitigate (and perhaps to some limited extent, reverse) this condition which seems to be simply caused by wear and usage conditions. I have seen no evidence that condition Z is warrantable defect. It could be, but I just haven't seen the basis that it is.

Q: Why is it OK for the Service Centers to feed us a load of manure about the batteries?
A: It's not. I never said it was. I've been on the receiving end myself of times when service didn't evaluate my problem to my satisfaction and I was reasonable and shared technical data that I had collected with them and they were happy to take it and work with me and eventually resolved things. I hope they do more of that for everyone. But I was clear about what my legal rights were and did not seek a remedy that was beyond what I was legally entitled to.

Q: Why is it OK for the Service Centers not to show us the diagnostic reports on our batteries?
A: I'm uncertain on this. They may have a good reason to protect proprietary trade secrets. Or maybe they should share more information. Without knowing the information that they are not disclosing is impossible for any of us to tell.

Q: Why is it OK for Tesla to be evasive, clandestine, and silent?
A: Up to the extent it is necessary to legitimately protect trade secrets, beyond that, it's not ok. I never said it was.

 

[Keshk]

Not on my phone now, here is a more detailed response.

Q: why our opinions and beliefs are cockeyed.
A: I haven't labeled them with such a generalization. i usually respond with specific facts and evidence or law -- usually just the language from the actual warranty.

Q: What are we not seeing clearly through our biases and self-interests?
A: Again, I make specific responses to specific statements that I disagree with and my writing speaks for itself. If you disagree with any of criticisms, quote them and explain yourself with specificity.

Q: Why is it OK for Tesla to usurp our batteries' performance or SC speeds without our consent or without a valid reason for doing so?
A: They already did so from day one. The BMS reads many variables of the battery and responds accordingly. How it responds changes over time due to the condition of the battery itself, as well what the BMS finds about the battery and how it evaluates the information that it finds. condition Z is just a new bit of data about the battery. My speculation, I could very well be wrong, is that condition Z is some form of lithium plating and the BMS now senses this condition and adjusts the battery to mitigate (and perhaps to some limited extent, reverse) this condition which seems to be simply caused by wear and usage conditions. I have seen no evidence that condition Z is warrantable defect. It could be, but I just haven't seen the basis that it is.

Q: Why is it OK for the Service Centers to feed us a load of manure about the batteries?
A: It's not. I never said it was. I've been on the receiving end myself of times when service didn't evaluate my problem to my satisfaction and I was reasonable and shared technical data that I had collected with them and they were happy to take it and work with me and eventually resolved things. I hope they do more of that for everyone. But I was clear about what my legal rights were and did not seek a remedy that was beyond what I was legally entitled to.

Q: Why is it OK for the Service Centers not to show us the diagnostic reports on our batteries?
A: I'm uncertain on this. They may have a good reason to protect proprietary trade secrets. Or maybe they should share more information. Without knowing the information that they are not disclosing is impossible for any of us to tell.

Q: Why is it OK for Tesla to be evasive, clandestine, and silent?
A: Up to the extent it is necessary to legitimately protect trade secrets, beyond that, it's not ok. I never said it was.

You keep asking for specifics specifics specifics....
You were given before many specifics from different people. You kept repeating "party line" false arguements. This is Like when a defense attorney who does not have a defense

 

[doctorwho]

In case some of you want to know, the battery swap cost about $22k based on the quote SC sent me, of course, it's covered under warranty.

Took SC 3 days to get the pack, and couple hours for the swap. pretty fast turn around.

Hope to see more and more of us get the same fix.

Gee, I have to wait until mid-May for my pack. I'm very happy to wait if it means that I get the new pack though

 

[sixela]

You were given before many specifics from different people. You kept repeating "party line" false arguements [sic]. This is Like when a defense attorney who does not have a defense

Are we going for the world record in vagueness in recriminations in this thread? What exactly are you trying to achieve here? Hound him away?

Even though I do not agree with many in this thread (I've made my arguments, no need to rehash it once more) I do enjoy the informational content, but posts like this aren't part of what I enjoy.

 

[Fierofiend]

Is there anyone here with a P85DL that can confirm they are still pulling 1525 amps under WOT with the current software?

2014 P85DL, ScanMyTesla still shows over that amount. I don't usually watch it during WOT but the recorded peak is usually around 1545 give or take. I'm on 2020.4.1

 

[NoahX]

Given that your car is 2012 I am surprised that Tesla did not try to give you a sweet deal on upgrading. Wouldn't you be out of warranty soon on the power train and everything else?
Did they give indicate what the warranty is on your new battery?

Not sure they ever wanted to do that giving the fact that the ridiculous trade-in quotes they gave. As for the warranty, I don't think it gets extended because of the new battery, I'll be on my own next year.

 

[sorka]

2014 P85DL, ScanMyTesla still shows over that amount. I don't usually watch it during WOT but the recorded peak is usually around 1545 give or take. I'm on 2020.4.1

That's good news. I've seen peaks up to 1535 but never higher than that even when almost new.

How many miles do you have?

 

[SmartElectric]

Why is it OK for Tesla to usurp our batteries' performance or SC speeds without our consent or without a valid reason for doing so?

"valid reason" - Tesla has engineering teams focused on the question of the valid reasons to restrict performance and charging speeds.

From factory, my 2013 Tesla S85 has charged similar to those affected by "charge gate".

Example : 90 kW peak rate in best conditions, typical roughly ~ 100-SOC rate as graphed, 40kW peak rates in winter (cold battery) , etc.

Supercharging has always been deliberately throttled for cars, the question is when and why, but those answers are only able to be determined outside of Tesla via collective data gathering and experience sharing (as done on this thread).

It has been "Ok" and "not Ok" for 7+ years now, and the situation has varied from cold battery behavior (no regen) to supercharging slowness to the 2019+ charge drop for some cars via firmware. It's ALWAYS been the case that Tesla has not guided the exact choices made by the firmware.

In my case, I have 97% original capacity, and still supercharge with a curve that closely matches newer cars with firmware that throttles them compared to experiences they had when the car was newer with older firmware. My data sharing was this : Tesla has always throttled cars, it just depended on the specific conditions, my car was throttled due to battery design of the original A pack, and that was Ok by me, and it doesn't make my car unusable in any way, yes, we charge 3x slower than a Model 3, fine, it's still a great car.

 

[glide]

Given that your car is 2012 I am surprised that Tesla did not try to give you a sweet deal on upgrading. Wouldn't you be out of warranty soon on the power train and everything else?
Did they give indicate what the warranty is on your new battery?

This is where a traditional dealership model would be useful. If I had a crippled car to trade in with BMW they would gladly make the numbers work to get me into a new one.

Tesla does the opposite by throwing out the most insulting trade-in numbers I've ever seen. They wound up pushing me back to BMW for my next car with their inability to negotiate and be reasonable.

 

[alloverx]

Not sure they ever wanted to do that giving the fact that the ridiculous trade-in quotes they gave. As for the warranty, I don't think it gets extended because of the new battery, I'll be on my own next year.

So you just got a standard 12 month repair warranty for the new battery?

 

[MP3Mike]

So you just got a standard 12 month repair warranty for the new battery?

No when a battery is replaced under warranty it keeps the same warranty period as the original battery.