Tesla Begrudgingly “Recalls” FSD Beta for NHTSA

I'm sure this will be a sticky on all of the vehicle forums shortly:

NHTSA Recalls Every Tesla Equipped With 'Full Self-Driving Beta' Over Crash Risks

The safety agency is requiring a software update to Tesla Model S, Model X, Model 3 and Model Y vehicles, saying FSD Beta "may allow the vehicle to act unsafe."

jalopnik.com

(moderator note: related threads here…)
FSD Recall? in Software
Recall FUD in Uk

"Full Self Driving Tesla" by rulenumberone2 is licensed under CC BY 2.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

 

[Nikon201068]

No. v11 will come out when Tesla decides it's good enough to release.

So this OTA fix will come from v10.xx?

 

[DanCar]

Thread title is a lie. No vehicles are being recalled because of FSD.

why? Because Tesla says its 'voluntary?' Obviously you're not married and don't appreciate the full scope of the word voluntary . . .

Nothing to do with voluntary.
recall - Wiktionary : To withdraw, retract
No vehicles are being withdrawn. No vehicles are being retracted.
Definition #2: To call back, bring back
No vehicles are being called back. No vehicles are being brought back.
Definition #7: to request or order the return of (a faulty product).
No vehicles are being requested or ordered to be returned.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Interesting. I had downloaded theNHTSA document that was linked by @GSP on page two of the thread:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V085-3451.PDF

I'm not seeing the word "exceed" in there. Perhaps there's a companion document that I haven't accessed.

Sorry I thought that was from the report given Matias quoted it. That wording is actually in the NHTSA letter that accompanied it. The second document that the Verge linked to:
RCAK-23V085-2525

Tesla recalls 362,758 vehicles equipped with Full Self-Driving beta for ‘crash risk’

NHTSA pushed Tesla to issue an update, which isn’t out yet.

www.theverge.com

 

[GSP]

Interesting. I had downloaded theNHTSA document that was linked by @GSP on page two of the thread:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V085-3451.PDF

I'm not seeing the word "exceed" in there. Perhaps there's a companion document that I haven't accessed.

I went back and re-read the NHTSA report. The language is completely different. Is there another NHTSA document, or where do these other quotes come from?

Key wording in the “Description of Defect:”

“In certain rare circumstances and within the operating limitations of FSD Beta, when the feature is engaged, the feature could potentially infringe upon local traffic laws or customs while executing certain driving maneuvers in the following conditions before some drivers may intervene:

1) traveling or turning through certain intersections during a stale yellow traffic light;

2) the perceived duration of the vehicle’s static position at certain intersections with a stop sign, particularly when the intersection is clear of any other road users;

3) adjusting vehicle speed while traveling through certain variable speed zones, based on detected speed limit signage and/or the vehicle's speed offset setting that is adjusted by the driver; and

4) negotiating a lane change out of certain turn-only lanes to continue traveling straight.”

GSP

Edit: Thanks @stopcrazypp for the link to both NHTSA documents, including the cover letter.

 

[240vPlug]

I guess this means FSD Beta v11 is coming soon

 

[Dewg]

It doesn't matter. Its up to me to prevent those things. They shouldn't have the right to take features away from people using them responsibly because something "could" happen. Guess what - a piece of an airplane COULD fall off. Your RISK of injury INCREASES if you go outside. Should the gov have the power to keep you in our house? Of course not. This is no different.

I'm not arguing the merits of the decision - just why the decision could have been made. BTW - have you seen the warnings companies put on products these days? Likely either regulations required them, or someone sued the company...

CAUTION: Contents Hot (on a cup of coffee)
WARNING: Sharp (on packages for scissors and knives)
CAUTION: Do not shine beam in eyes (for laser pointers)
DANGER: Do not hold the wrong end of a chainsaw
INSTRUCTIONS: Do not use while sleeping (for hair dryers)
And one of my favorites: CAUTION: This product may contain eggs (on a carton of eggs)

 

[stopcrazypp]

It means that the car did not respond quickly enough to the driver's adjustment, which leads to exceeding the speed limits.

I read it as the issue being the car does not prevent (or even warn against) driver using the scroll wheel to adjust the set speed far above the speed limit. Like perhaps NHTSA will allow Tesla to keep the offset setting (which you can't change on the fly and has max relative limits), but might disable the set speed setting that the driver adjusts.

Basically the latter function mentioned in this tweet:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1321478198387855360

Tesla's FSD Beta has a new Speed Limit Cruise Control feature

Tesla’s Full Self-Driving Beta has various new features that make driving a more personal and customizable experience for owners. One of the newest additions to the Beta is the ability to travel at a set speed over a speed limit, which gives drivers a more comfortable feel of how fast they’d...

www.google.com

 

[PianoAl]

I think it refers to the driver reducing the speed using the scroll wheel, but the car not responding to that very quickly at all, the same syndrome as when the car detects the lower speed zone but but the actual slowing is extremely gradual.

Ah, yes. That interpretation of the sentence makes the most sense. That is (bolding added)

... adjusting vehicle speed while traveling through certain variable speed zones, based on (1) detected speed limit signage and/or (2) the vehicle's speed offset setting that is adjusted by the driver...

 

[DanCar]

The NHTSA saying vehicles are being recalled is a lie.
recall - Wiktionary : To withdraw, retract
No vehicles are being withdrawn. No vehicles are being retracted.
Definition #2: To call back, bring back
No vehicles are being called back. No vehicles are being brought back.
Definition #7: to request or order the return of (a faulty product).
No vehicles are being requested or ordered to be returned.

 

[Supcom]

I read it as the issue being the car does not prevent (or even warn against) driver using the scroll wheel to adjust the set speed far above the speed limit. Like perhaps NHTSA will allow Tesla to keep the offset setting (which you can't change on the fly and has max relative limits), but might disable the set speed setting that the driver adjusts.

So, why, do you think, that NHTSA did not require all Teslas to be recalled. TACC/AP allows users to set speeds above the posted limit.

 

[Twiglett]

I read it as the issue being the car does not prevent (or even warn against) driver using the scroll wheel to adjust the set speed far above the speed limit. Like perhaps NHTSA will allow Tesla to keep the offset setting (which you can't change on the fly and has max relative limits), but might disable the set speed setting that the driver adjusts.

Basically the latter function mentioned in this tweet:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1321478198387855360

Tesla's FSD Beta has a new Speed Limit Cruise Control feature

Tesla’s Full Self-Driving Beta has various new features that make driving a more personal and customizable experience for owners. One of the newest additions to the Beta is the ability to travel at a set speed over a speed limit, which gives drivers a more comfortable feel of how fast they’d...

www.google.com

the funny thing about that is that James Locke mentions an FSD he likes, but shows that its actually an AP feature, not FSD.
Even folks who know that difference can't separate them.
FSD itself has no such speed control, it only has Chill/Normal/Assertive

 

[OldPro]

My buddy (total tech geek) has FSD on his Model 3, we along with our wives were on the way to the movies a couple of weeks ago. He had his FSD engaged to show me how it functions (I do not have on my wife's M3). Vehicle was supposed to turn right at an intersection, instead it turned left and held in the turn lane for a couple of seconds...then darted into the lane to the right to go straight. No way to correct the direction of the Tesla since we were already in the middle of a very busy intersection. Scared the crap out of me...I had to ask him if he had the seat warmer on....I thought I had peed myself!
Don't get me wrong, I love my 2018 Tesla Model 3 in it's "Plain Jane" configuration.

 

[OldPro]

So, why, do you think, that NHTSA did not require all Teslas to be recalled. TACC/AP allows users to set speeds above the posted limit.

Don't give the NHTSA any ideas!

 

[stopcrazypp]

No. The car had it's left turn signal on up to the point it gave up and turned right. The reroute was to go around the block to get back to the road it turned off of. Hardly a better route, except that it kept the car from stopping in the lane.

To clarify, I meant at the point it decided to give up. If the traffic cleared up right at that point, it might not have rerouted. Now with the recall that presumably wouldn't even be presented as a path option.

 

[Supcom]

So this OTA fix will come from v10.xx?

Nothing has been said. If v11 is not ready, then it might.

 

[Dewg]

The term "recall" was created a long time ago to describe what needed to happen with automobiles when a fault was discovered - the cars had to be taken in to a service center/dealership to repair/fix/satisfy the terms of the recall. Technology has changed, but the terminology hasn't been updated with the times.

The issue some people have is that "recall" is engrained in the vernacular as meaning that the cars have to be taken in. With modern OTA updates that more car companies are supporting, recalling something doesn't necessarily mean it has to be brought back to a service center. So "recall" seems harsher than it really is. People see "recall" and assume the worst.

I don't know if they will change the terminology and create a new term for a problem that is fixed with an OTA update that the owners don't have to do anything to satisfy.

 

[CyberGus]

I'm not arguing the merits of the decision - just why the decision could have been made. BTW - have you seen the warnings companies put on products these days? Likely either regulations required them, or someone sued the company...

CAUTION: Contents Hot (on a cup of coffee)
WARNING: Sharp (on packages for scissors and knives)
CAUTION: Do not shine beam in eyes (for laser pointers)
DANGER: Do not hold the wrong end of a chainsaw
INSTRUCTIONS: Do not use while sleeping (for hair dryers)
And one of my favorites: CAUTION: This product may contain eggs (on a carton of eggs)

 

[GSP]

Description of defect:
“In certain rare circumstances and within the operating limitations of FSD Beta, when the feature is engaged, the feature could potentially infringe upon local traffic laws or customs while executing certain driving maneuvers in the following conditions before some drivers may intervene:

1) traveling or turning through certain intersections during a stale yellow traffic light;

2) the perceived duration of the vehicle’s static position at certain intersections with a stop sign, particularly when the intersection is clear of any other road users;

3) adjusting vehicle speed while traveling through certain variable speed zones, based on detected speed limit signage and/or the vehicle's speed offset setting that is adjusted by the driver; and

4) negotiating a lane change out of certain turn-only lanes to continue traveling straight.”

——————-

#3 above seems to reference the vehicle’s adjustment of speed, following a change in speed limit or driver input. I am hopeful the only change will be to respond faster when set speed is reduced

#2 above seems to indicate that it is not always the best thing to come to a complete stop in a deserted intersection when there is an impatient driver behind you. Maybe NHTSA is going to allow FSD to roll some stop signs again?

GSP

 

[nvx1977]

and so it begins again..View attachment 907956

clearly you didn't look at the overall Nasdaq chart for the day.

 

[Supcom]

To clarify, I meant at the point it decided to give up. If the traffic cleared up right at that point, it might not have rerouted. Now with the recall that presumably wouldn't even be presented as a path option.

Had traffic cleared up, the car would have moved into the lane to the left and continued on. Perfectly legal. The point was that the car did not attempt to continue straight in the turn lane, which it could physically have done.