Back to human sensors then, when you hear a bang you are too close.
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[uk] UltraSonic Sensors removal/TV replacement performance
- Thread starter randompixel
- Start date
Mr H
Active Member
I can pretty much guarantee that this will be my last Tesla
Removing the hardware before the software features to replace them seems like a pretty extreme thing to do, although the same happened in the US with removal of the radar. Other than the issues with AutoWipers and AutoDips, the removal of radar hasn't been noticeable on my mid 2022 car, so I guess I should assume they know what they are doing with this,
They do need to address the Wipers and Dips, and maybe this would suggest that they will become mandatory all the time after this update.
They do need to address the Wipers and Dips, and maybe this would suggest that they will become mandatory all the time after this update.
Yep, I'm feeling that.
This decision just seems so daft, especially gimping the existing functionality of the cars in the hope that Tesla Vision will one day be able to restore it. I used to work with a lot of banks, who did their best to shoot themselves in the feet and be as inefficient as possible. Tesla remind me of them - their main problem is that they're too successful, so it doesn't matter how many crap decisions they make. They won't learn until we all stop giving them money.
How is this going to work for falcon-wing doors? Surely those will still need ultrasonics?
Fitted for £80, the latest must-have Tesla accessory. lol 
www.halfords.com
Veba Number Plate Parking Sensor | Halfords UK
Shop the latest Make reverse parking easy with the Veba Number Plate Parking Sensor. at Halfords UK
www.halfords.com
In the Tesla release, against the temporarily withdrawn features, I see those immortal words “coming soon”.
Now where have I seen that before…
So now I have two pillar cameras that block with condensation just because I get in the car and a rear camera whose harness may fail because the recall is a wait until it breaks recall. My radar unit is shut down and can go on eBay and soon my parking sensors can join them.
This can only go one of two ways; I will be astounded at how amazingly well the new arrangement works and praise the “vison of Musk” or I’ll sell the useless pile of metal before it becomes as toxic as Government bonds!
Now where have I seen that before…
So now I have two pillar cameras that block with condensation just because I get in the car and a rear camera whose harness may fail because the recall is a wait until it breaks recall. My radar unit is shut down and can go on eBay and soon my parking sensors can join them.
This can only go one of two ways; I will be astounded at how amazingly well the new arrangement works and praise the “vison of Musk” or I’ll sell the useless pile of metal before it becomes as toxic as Government bonds!
Given your purchase history and that from your posts you're not a natural moaner like me, I think this is pretty significant
I guess the true test of this will be if it all works without the sensors - I'm doubtful.
It seems Tesla are putting all their eggs in one basket and that historically has never been proven to be the right decision - indeed redundancy systems although there is additional cost in providing back up technology it does mean when something fails a separate system takes over. In this scenario if a USS fails there are other sensors to ensure the system continues to work.
Do the Americans never learn - remember the Boeing 737 Max - crashing on take off - all down to using a single sensor.
I have commented before, Tesla's penny pinching is damaging the brand, they made the best they could initially, and once demand went through the roof they started the value engineering.
They have gone too far for me, I will not buy another Tesla, my 2020 M3P is an absolutely brilliant car and for me the peak of the model - I like the Chrome, but anodised black is so much cheaper and Tesla managed to sell that as an improvement, hard plastic door cards, lumber support, the white panel on the door cards if white interior selected, radar, the new centre console, data ports - all part of the value engineering.
If the new camera only system is bad, I won't wait for Tesla to fix it - I will buy an aftermarket USS kit and install it in the same holes in the bumpers so it looks OEM - I'm pretty sure people like Hansshow will develop a kit to replace what we had.
It seems Tesla are putting all their eggs in one basket and that historically has never been proven to be the right decision - indeed redundancy systems although there is additional cost in providing back up technology it does mean when something fails a separate system takes over. In this scenario if a USS fails there are other sensors to ensure the system continues to work.
Do the Americans never learn - remember the Boeing 737 Max - crashing on take off - all down to using a single sensor.
I have commented before, Tesla's penny pinching is damaging the brand, they made the best they could initially, and once demand went through the roof they started the value engineering.
They have gone too far for me, I will not buy another Tesla, my 2020 M3P is an absolutely brilliant car and for me the peak of the model - I like the Chrome, but anodised black is so much cheaper and Tesla managed to sell that as an improvement, hard plastic door cards, lumber support, the white panel on the door cards if white interior selected, radar, the new centre console, data ports - all part of the value engineering.
If the new camera only system is bad, I won't wait for Tesla to fix it - I will buy an aftermarket USS kit and install it in the same holes in the bumpers so it looks OEM - I'm pretty sure people like Hansshow will develop a kit to replace what we had.
This is insane. Im waiting on a MYP. UK car parks are a nightmare without parking sensors.
Remove USS once Tesla Vision is ready!
Remove USS once Tesla Vision is ready!
rickyjb
Member
Teslas new haptic feedback system will be revolutionary
I’m waiting for one of the fanboys to come along and explain to us why this is a genius move on the part of the Muskovite
Genius move if Tesla buy up bodyshops…
Seriously though this working (at all) all seems to hinge on object persistence and their ability to create a volumetric map at insane detail, pretty quickly. I’m guessing (and I’m not the only one) they’re relying on blind spots being covered by “historical” data or the relationship between objects. I.e you can’t close with an object to a degree where you might hit it, without approaching it from an angle/distance that will be caught by the cameras. Someone puts a trolley in a camera blind spot that you haven’t noticed though? Heck knows.
Whatever your stance on this - man, Tesla ownership really is something different. This change could be an enormous accomplishment, or it could flop horrendously and lead to huge class action. All whilst drawing the ire of basically every vehicle standards body.
Tesla has no chill!
Seriously though this working (at all) all seems to hinge on object persistence and their ability to create a volumetric map at insane detail, pretty quickly. I’m guessing (and I’m not the only one) they’re relying on blind spots being covered by “historical” data or the relationship between objects. I.e you can’t close with an object to a degree where you might hit it, without approaching it from an angle/distance that will be caught by the cameras. Someone puts a trolley in a camera blind spot that you haven’t noticed though? Heck knows.
Whatever your stance on this - man, Tesla ownership really is something different. This change could be an enormous accomplishment, or it could flop horrendously and lead to huge class action. All whilst drawing the ire of basically every vehicle standards body.
Tesla has no chill!
Chimpy McChimp
Member
I haven't received my Y yet but this news concerns me. If Indeed my car comes without parking sensors do we have grounds to complain? I can't recall if the spec of the car stated it had parking sensors or not.
Edit. The current owner manual states it has sensors. Surely if the car comes without we can complain as it is not what we ordered? Or am I being naive?
Edit. The current owner manual states it has sensors. Surely if the car comes without we can complain as it is not what we ordered? Or am I being naive?
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The annoying thing is that Tesla reported the highest gross margin per car at 32.9% in Q1 2022. It only dipped to 27.9% in Q2 2022, presumably due to logistical challenges.
How much is enough? With prices rising and more and more competing cars entering the market, how much are customers going to tolerate?
It always seems to be customers that suffer with these changes. If it's not premature hardware depreciation, it's straight up removing stuff (lumbar support, USB data) and offering customers no choice or discount.
Ultrasonics work well for the functions they provide. They are not immune to signal degradation from mud, etc, which is why you have several of them on the front and rear of the car. A single camera at both ends is not a viable substitute for that, particularly as the cameras as fitted on the cars do not perform as well at night (they have no IR lighting capability). Manifestly parking distance accuracy will be degraded at night if using Tesla Vision only, compared to ultrasonics.
How much is enough? With prices rising and more and more competing cars entering the market, how much are customers going to tolerate?
It always seems to be customers that suffer with these changes. If it's not premature hardware depreciation, it's straight up removing stuff (lumbar support, USB data) and offering customers no choice or discount.
Ultrasonics work well for the functions they provide. They are not immune to signal degradation from mud, etc, which is why you have several of them on the front and rear of the car. A single camera at both ends is not a viable substitute for that, particularly as the cameras as fitted on the cars do not perform as well at night (they have no IR lighting capability). Manifestly parking distance accuracy will be degraded at night if using Tesla Vision only, compared to ultrasonics.
I'm all for innovation, but surely the removal of such a tried and tested feature, especially for parking in tight spaces like garages in low light, is destined to fail.
Now what to do about my 20th May order now, as no parking sensors, even in the short term, will increase claims for small bumps and scrapes, and push up insurance premiums etc. Tesla need to provide more clarity and put minds at rest.
Now what to do about my 20th May order now, as no parking sensors, even in the short term, will increase claims for small bumps and scrapes, and push up insurance premiums etc. Tesla need to provide more clarity and put minds at rest.
This is the worst news I've read in the long time as a MY owner. It is moronic imho.
The side cameras dont work at night (they report being blind). The front often report vision obscured (often in low sun conditions).
High kerbs in car parks often rely on the sensors.
And to remove the summon features before they are ready using TV is so wrong.
As stated elsewhere. why cut the complete bottom out of the features and yet still charge the same as others offering now more.
No word of a lie, I could not honestly recommend a tesla to someone now if they are removing USS.
Will hold off SW updates from here in, if they seek to streamline configurations by disabling USS inputs from vehicles with them present.
Fundamentally, while it's technically possible. why regress from a position where a feature works well (in many conditions) to one where it is now unknown and will very likely not surpass but at best just match existing capability. You can give tesla the benefit of doubt as many do and support but from a customer pov, it brings absolutely nothing to the table but concern for existing owners and reduced features in EAP for new customers.
The side cameras dont work at night (they report being blind). The front often report vision obscured (often in low sun conditions).
High kerbs in car parks often rely on the sensors.
And to remove the summon features before they are ready using TV is so wrong.
As stated elsewhere. why cut the complete bottom out of the features and yet still charge the same as others offering now more.
No word of a lie, I could not honestly recommend a tesla to someone now if they are removing USS.
Will hold off SW updates from here in, if they seek to streamline configurations by disabling USS inputs from vehicles with them present.
Fundamentally, while it's technically possible. why regress from a position where a feature works well (in many conditions) to one where it is now unknown and will very likely not surpass but at best just match existing capability. You can give tesla the benefit of doubt as many do and support but from a customer pov, it brings absolutely nothing to the table but concern for existing owners and reduced features in EAP for new customers.
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It determines whether a specific point in space is occupied or not. It then builds what they are calling a volumetric map. So really a 3d presentation of what's around the car.
It seems to maintain the map for quite some distance. The video shows a car driving around streets and there are several cars length of data showing behind the car. IIRC Persistence of vision is already being used in FSD. The article I linked to also mentions a 4D occupancy grid, so it is capable of tracking moving objects that may enter the space around the car.
Even with ultrasonic sensors you are advised not to rely on them to determine a space is free of objects. Lots of caveats in the manual about using them.
Ultimately we don't know how it will perform because no-one has a car running it, so why worry about it now?
The object persistence would have to take account of all of the things we don't currently see on the visualisation; walls, trolleys, rocks, plants, etc. If it does start having to remember all of this stuff, just because they want to get rid of ultrasonics, is that a good thing? I see it as broadly the same argument in favour of the $5 Bosch rain sensor - how much development time and processing power is wasted trying to reinvent a working system?
Based on how "effective" auto high beams and auto wipers are, I'm not confident.
The best thing you can say about either of those two systems is that sometimes they reach parity with other car's systems using traditional sensors. Some people report few problems with them, others report regular problems, but there is definitely not the "it just works" consensus that you should (and can) expect with these systems in 2022. I suspect there is a narrow envelope where both systems on a Tesla work effectively, much narrower than the aforementioned Bosch rain sensor. I can't even really explain why the auto high beams system is so retrograde.
The existing cameras aren't capable of a 360 vision as you see on other cars. There are blind spots in the vision due to the configuration and orientation of them.
You're sortof right about "why worry about it now?", but I would turn that on its head and simply say "why implement it now?". Tesla have even said that multiple features will be disabled in non-USS cars while they try and reach parity, so clearly their Tesla Vision system to replace USS isn't ready. You're right that people shouldn't rely on ultrasonics, but they do - because they're reliable in all but edge case scenarios (e.g. random obstacle between two sensors).
Again, why must customers suffer inadequate and frustrating performance and capabilities just because Tesla wants to run before it can walk? I'm more inclined to believe that this has more to do with squeezing margin than it does an earnest belief that TV is ready to replace USS.
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