[uk] UltraSonic Sensors removal/TV replacement performance

[Casss]

The object persistence would have to take account of all of the things we don't currently see on the visualisation; walls, trolleys, rocks, plants, etc. If it does start having to remember all of this stuff, just because they want to get rid of ultrasonics, is that a good thing? I see it as broadly the same argument in favour of the $5 Bosch rain sensor - how much development time and processing power is wasted trying to reinvent a working system?



Based on how "effective" auto high beams and auto wipers are, I'm not confident.

The best thing you can say about either of those two systems is that sometimes they reach parity with other car's systems using traditional sensors. Some people report few problems with them, others report regular problems, but there is definitely not the "it just works" consensus that you should (and can) expect with these systems in 2022. I suspect there is a narrow envelope where both systems on a Tesla work effectively, much narrower than the aforementioned Bosch rain sensor. I can't even really explain why the auto high beams system is so retrograde.

Yep it would, and I don’t even think the latest FSD is picking up really small objects that could still cause damage. Then again sometimes the sensors don’t.

I agree I think it’s a huge software overhead just to remove some sensors and it may not be a cost saving after all. I can’t fathom it either really, then again I’m not an AI megamind, but then again then again I’ve worked with people like that before and whilst they’re due their dues sometimes ones drive to best a challenge blinds us to real world practicalities and the question “why”.

Either way it’s a wild ride owning these things. I’d be much more annoyed if I was a customer paying for EAP or FSD. As it is I’m just not installing any more updates for a while.

 

[Mrklaw]

removing USS from the autopilot software - maybe

removing USS from simple feedback loop beeping when parking - nonsense.

Surely these things are dirt cheap these days and even the most basic cars have at least rear sensors.

 

[chemirocha]

It took me a while to realise that this isn’t just a joke! We can only hope it’s more successful than doing without a dedicated wipers sensor… vision now works ok during the daylight but I drove in the dark tonight in light rain and had to resort to using manual settings. It’s pitch black where I park and with a meagre reversing light I am concerned that it simply won’t work. Add in the constantly dirty rear camera….

I agree. Driving in the dark last night with intermittent rain/drizzle on mostly dual carriageway, I couldn't use AP because it turns on the auto-mainbeam which simply doesn't work well enough to avoid annoying drivers coming the other way. If I used cruise control then the wipers have to be on auto and we all know how well they work - I was constantly having to manually trigger a wipe or watch while the wipers carried on wiping a dry screen.

Also, while in cruise control, it seemed to me that the distance between me and the car in front was not as great as it used to be, or that I thought it was in daylight. I do have it on the maximum of 7 and it still seemed a bit too close given the conditions. Might be my imagination - the dark and wet might have tricked my brain - not hard to do!

I ended up with everything in manual mode - it just felt safer. Having said that, before the Tesla I would never have used cruise control on a wet road so maybe I expected too much.

It's hard to admit, but last night was the first time, after 18 months of ownership, that I thought I might have bought the wrong car.

 

[cerbfan]

This is not going to work at all. Come the depths of winter in North Scotland after the 30 mile drive to work the back of my car is so filthy from all the road salt/grit that you can barely read the number plate and the camera is going to see absolutely nothing. So unless I get out to clean the camera before parking I'll have no reversing aid. Not that I really need it but its hardly the point. Will be exactly the same for the rear facing camera on the wing in fact the only camera that has a chance in winter is the forward facing one cleaned by the wipers.

They need to make cars that work in all areas and climates that they are sold in not just the ones where they are developed.

 

[Dilly]

Someone somewhere must know more than is being told.
Why on earth would you remove a system that works and replace in the short term with absolutely nothing and a promise that what will work is “coming soon”.
Surely, you wait until the replacement is tested and works.

I can see some logic in the whole vision scenario mapping the surroundings for a multitude of uses rather than just AP/FSD etc.
Perhaps, just perhaps, this will lead to single stack, city streets and FSD becoming a shorter reality!

EDIT: Sorry, just dreaming

 

[Dilly]

I agree. Driving in the dark last night with intermittent rain/drizzle on mostly dual carriageway, I couldn't use AP because it turns on the auto-mainbeam which simply doesn't work well enough to avoid annoying drivers coming the other way. If I used cruise control then the wipers have to be on auto and we all know how well they work - I was constantly having to manually trigger a wipe or watch while the wipers carried on wiping a dry screen.

Also, while in cruise control, it seemed to me that the distance between me and the car in front was not as great as it used to be, or that I thought it was in daylight. I do have it on the maximum of 7 and it still seemed a bit too close given the conditions. Might be my imagination - the dark and wet might have tricked my brain - not hard to do!

I ended up with everything in manual mode - it just felt safer. Having said that, before the Tesla I would never have used cruise control on a wet road so maybe I expected too much.

It's hard to admit, but last night was the first time, after 18 months of ownership, that I thought I might have bought the wrong car.

I don’t have an issue with wipers. Just lucky I guess. You’re dead right about follow distance. I‘ve had mine set on 5 from new without any bother. I followed a lorry in the dark (not raining) recently and it got way too close so I backed off to 7 and it was still too close. I reckon it was about 3 lengths!

 

[TheRealWatto]

This only makes sense as a way to sell more wheels with all the kerbing that'll happen.

 

[kelvin 660]

Quote from Elon, "The best part is no part", so he is following his methodology...

But, wouldn't it be best to keep the ultrasonic sensors until they have a proven and working alternative, otherwise they are going to may have to retrofit them sometime in the future? It makes me wonder who is running the show at Tesla these days when they can't even get the basics to work like the AHB... Should I sell my car now? Hmm, what to replace it with though??

 

[Buzzliteyear]

I haven't received my Y yet but this news concerns me. If Indeed my car comes without parking sensors do we have grounds to complain? I can't recall if the spec of the car stated it had parking sensors or not.

Edit. The current owner manual states it has sensors. Surely if the car comes without we can complain as it is not what we ordered? Or am I being naive?

It's not will your car come with the sensors or not, the question is more how long will it be before your sensors are ignored/disabled.

The good thing is, that the cameras do show up well for reversing. Just a shame the front doesn't have the same coverage.

 

[WllXM]

This is just pure madness...
As OP said, this is 90% of the features of EAP I paid dearly for.
And I'm still waiting for bird's eye view to avoid curbing my wheels and have a bonnet front view like in 90% of 2022 cars in this price range.
I don't consider myself fortunate enough to have one of the last few cars with USS, but instead, I'm wondering how long I'll be on borrowed time before a future software update disables USS...

Elon giveth and Elon taketh away...

 

[MrBadger]

Edit. The current owner manual states it has sensors. Surely if the car comes without we can complain as it is not what we ordered? Or am I being naive?

Tesla have in the past, when possible, honoured the spec that the car was ordered with, at worse, let the customer know of a change in spec to give them the choice. Of course, the spec needs to be documented first, so can I suggest that if you still can, you screen shot the spec of the car you ordered whilst you still can.

And I'm still waiting for bird's eye view to avoid curbing my wheels and have a bonnet front view like in 90% of 2022 cars in this price range.

Alas you do have birds eye view (BEV), just vector view after Tesla has processed the objects rather than stitched output from the cameras. Lots of room for error in Tesla's approach, but thats what EM gave us when he promised us BEV.

 

[phil4]

My guess is for whatever reason they can't get the sensors. Shortage of supply or some such.

That's the only reason I can think of for a) stating safety is your goal and b) removing a feature that adds safety. But at the same time having no alternative in place yet.
That just stinks of don't have supply but need to keep building and shipping cars.

As to removing the function from the software, perhaps it'll never happen or perhaps they will. I suspect it'll be about as effective as the rain and headlight sensors. Work some of the time, but definitely not all of the time.

And as for all the tight carpark parking, parking at night, dark garages, dirt covered cameras etc... they're not so much edge cases as 25% of the time. We already see enough "camera blinded messages" for months of the year when either the camera is dazzled by the low sun, or it's dark.

It's not going to make the cars better in any way shape or form... so suspect it's because of supply.

 

[Chimpy McChimp]

Tesla have in the past, when possible, honoured the spec that the car was ordered with, at worse, let the customer know of a change in spec to give them the choice. Of course, the spec needs to be documented first, so can I suggest that if you still can, you screen shot the spec of the car you ordered whilst you still can.



Alas you do have birds eye view (BEV), just vector view after Tesla has processed the objects rather than stitched output from the cameras. Lots of room for error in Tesla's approach, but thats what EM gave us when he promised us BEV.

I looked for full spec of my car but don't see any detail that says it comes with sensors. Hence looking at the latest manual that is online. Unless I missed so etching?

 

[Chimpy McChimp]

It's not will your car come with the sensors or not, the question is more how long will it be before your sensors are ignored/disabled.

The good thing is, that the cameras do show up well for reversing. Just a shame the front doesn't have the same coverage.

Agreed. But isn't it the same thing in the end? I ordered and paid for a car with parking sensors. If they turn them off I'm not going to be happy unless the camera set up is as good or better.

 

[init6]

The existing cameras aren't capable of a 360 vision as you see on other cars. There are blind spots in the vision due to the configuration and orientation of them.

The blind spots are less - possibly negated - when the car is moving. It was a genuine question last night. Under what circumstances would the car not see an object if it was driving up to that object? The only circumstance I could think of is if someone parked a car with an unpopulated bike rack in front of yours while you were away shopping or something. But that is probably an edge case such as USS have edge cases.

You're sortof right about "why worry about it now?", but I would turn that on its head and simply say "why implement it now?". Tesla have even said that multiple features will be disabled in non-USS cars while they try and reach parity, so clearly their Tesla Vision system to replace USS isn't ready. You're right that people shouldn't rely on ultrasonics, but they do - because they're reliable in all but edge case scenarios (e.g. random obstacle between two sensors).

Again, why must customers suffer inadequate and frustrating performance and capabilities just because Tesla wants to run before it can walk? I'm more inclined to believe that this has more to do with squeezing margin than it does an earnest belief that TV is ready to replace USS.

No-one is suffering anything now. It'll be a while before these cars hit the street (hopefully not literally). I'm not going to worry about it. More importantly Tesla aren't going to listen to me

 

[init6]

This only makes sense as a way to sell more wheels with all the kerbing that'll happen.

If USS prevents wheels being kerbed then I'm glad they're removing the sensors

 

[Obie]

Having watched a few youtube car crash videos I’m not sure Tesla’s argument that humans just use their eyes to drive so the car should be able to do the same is the right one. Bats and Dolphins do quite well using echolocation.
Humans are clever so we can put different systems on the car to “see” what’s going on rather than just relying on one.

 

[qwickshot]

I doubt it’s a supply issue, removing the sensors requires a full bumper redesign, very expensive moulds changed etc. It’s more than likely a planned change.

It’s very much a ‘we think we can remove this part with software problem’. Replacing it with software will likely result in significant cost savings in the long run.

The cost of placing the 4 sensors, associated wiring and the sensors themselves are not an insignificant cost over 350k cars a year.

The debate is whether this turns in to another auto high beam or not. Time will tell but given their track record, I think approaching this with a high degree of skepticism is more than reasonable.

The biggest issue is their approach, removing the hardware before the initial version of the software is even available is just poor.

 

[Buzzliteyear]

Agreed. But isn't it the same thing in the end? I ordered and paid for a car with parking sensors. If they turn them off I'm not going to be happy unless the camera set up is as good or better.

What we need is the software to catch up with what fsd beta uses at its core.
EAP/NOA outside the US, is like the relative that you wish to keep hidden away. It worked better when I first got the car and now it's getting to the stage where I don't want to use because it's more trouble than it's worth.

 

[MrT3]

My guess is for whatever reason they can't get the sensors. Shortage of supply or some such.

That's the only reason I can think of for a) stating safety is your goal and b) removing a feature that adds safety. But at the same time having no alternative in place yet.
That just stinks of don't have supply but need to keep building and shipping cars.

As to removing the function from the software, perhaps it'll never happen or perhaps they will. I suspect it'll be about as effective as the rain and headlight sensors. Work some of the time, but definitely not all of the time.

It could be supply issues but I doubt those little sensors are constrained, and they connect directly into one of the main body controllers rather than a separate control unit.

Possibly the removal coincides with upgraded cameras which have been rumours for a while now. If that's the case then the sensors on existing vehicles may never be disabled as the alternative would be too unreliable.


Cost saving is my feeling. Cost of installing them, cabling etc during manufacture.