Mr H
Active Member
yes because if the auto wipers and high beams are anything to go by then the full camera system will be crap
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[uk] UltraSonic Sensors removal/TV replacement performance
- Thread starter randompixel
- Start date
If they actually did make the cars constantly better, I would cheer them to the rafters.
I suspect there is a significant number of Tesla owners for whom its their first one, who have no reason not to assume all of the things they've taken for granted in the past 10+ years on other cars would also exist on their new car.
I bought mine off the strength of a test drive day. I was seduced by Autopilot, coming from a BMW i3 that wouldn't even activate its very limited "traffic jam assist" unless you were on a motorway. Suddenly I was in a car that treated me like an adult and let me do it anywhere! I had already done some research so knew about famed build quality issues, but I was in love with the tech and the test drive car was "ok". I was in love so ignored anything I should've paid more attention to. I even bought FSD because Tesla said on the order page that it would do "Automatic driving on city streets" by the end of the year (2020).
I found out about UNECE etc after I got the car, when I discovered that none of the autonomous stuff worked the same way as it did in the States. Perhaps that's my fault, but I don't recall there being any significant effort on Tesla's part to point out just how crippled it all is over here. I'm sure if I revisited the order page it probably says in their on-brand grey text that all of those features are subject to regulatory control, some boilerplate that covers them but does nothing to stress just how pervasive this control is.
2.5 years on I've got a car that hasn't really changed much in autonomous terms, and obviously "Automatic driving on city streets" never happened in 2020, and quietly vanished from the Tesla order page completely. The stuff I noticed was surprisingly bad or less effective than I've experienced on other, cheaper cars when I got it hasn't improved in a measureable way. Some aspects of the ownership and experience are a joy - the mobile service, the software updates that you don't have to trundle to a dealer for, similarly the complete lack of "you must do this every X years to maintain your warranty" hard sell on servicing. There's no reason all EVs can't be like this, when they're so simple compared to ICE cars. Tesla proves that they can be, so I resent other brands for trying to cling on to their glass fronted buildings at the expense of their clientele who don't know any better.
But as far as I'm concerned the landscape has changed massively even in just those 2.5 years to the point where the shortcomings of Teslas are too stark to ignore. Tesla have no excuse by now not to be building cars with a fit and finish commensurate with the premium price tag, they are not a startup company and it is laughable when people still to this day try to downplay these complaints by suggesting that Tesla is "a technology company who builds cars". It doesn't wash as an excuse.
I'm at the point personally where my patience with all of these beta things has pretty much run out. Autopilot isn't as revolutionary to me now as it was 2.5 years ago, other manufacturers are matching or have surpassed it. I'm sick of trying to understand or excuse why basic things don't work as well as they do on other cars half the price or less. It also irritates me that Tesla have shown that Europe is a total afterthought to them in terms of development (matrix headlights doing sod all for nearly 2 years is a good indicator of that).
Really the only thing keeping me in my current car is that it still has a je ne sais quoi aspirational value to it. I'll be curious to see if there is a significant facelift coming soon, or a Ludicrous M3, but beyond that the competition is too compelling...
(if you read this far congratulations)
I bought mine off the strength of a test drive day. I was seduced by Autopilot, coming from a BMW i3 that wouldn't even activate its very limited "traffic jam assist" unless you were on a motorway. Suddenly I was in a car that treated me like an adult and let me do it anywhere! I had already done some research so knew about famed build quality issues, but I was in love with the tech and the test drive car was "ok". I was in love so ignored anything I should've paid more attention to. I even bought FSD because Tesla said on the order page that it would do "Automatic driving on city streets" by the end of the year (2020).
I found out about UNECE etc after I got the car, when I discovered that none of the autonomous stuff worked the same way as it did in the States. Perhaps that's my fault, but I don't recall there being any significant effort on Tesla's part to point out just how crippled it all is over here. I'm sure if I revisited the order page it probably says in their on-brand grey text that all of those features are subject to regulatory control, some boilerplate that covers them but does nothing to stress just how pervasive this control is.
2.5 years on I've got a car that hasn't really changed much in autonomous terms, and obviously "Automatic driving on city streets" never happened in 2020, and quietly vanished from the Tesla order page completely. The stuff I noticed was surprisingly bad or less effective than I've experienced on other, cheaper cars when I got it hasn't improved in a measureable way. Some aspects of the ownership and experience are a joy - the mobile service, the software updates that you don't have to trundle to a dealer for, similarly the complete lack of "you must do this every X years to maintain your warranty" hard sell on servicing. There's no reason all EVs can't be like this, when they're so simple compared to ICE cars. Tesla proves that they can be, so I resent other brands for trying to cling on to their glass fronted buildings at the expense of their clientele who don't know any better.
But as far as I'm concerned the landscape has changed massively even in just those 2.5 years to the point where the shortcomings of Teslas are too stark to ignore. Tesla have no excuse by now not to be building cars with a fit and finish commensurate with the premium price tag, they are not a startup company and it is laughable when people still to this day try to downplay these complaints by suggesting that Tesla is "a technology company who builds cars". It doesn't wash as an excuse.
I'm at the point personally where my patience with all of these beta things has pretty much run out. Autopilot isn't as revolutionary to me now as it was 2.5 years ago, other manufacturers are matching or have surpassed it. I'm sick of trying to understand or excuse why basic things don't work as well as they do on other cars half the price or less. It also irritates me that Tesla have shown that Europe is a total afterthought to them in terms of development (matrix headlights doing sod all for nearly 2 years is a good indicator of that).
Really the only thing keeping me in my current car is that it still has a je ne sais quoi aspirational value to it. I'll be curious to see if there is a significant facelift coming soon, or a Ludicrous M3, but beyond that the competition is too compelling...
(if you read this far congratulations)
I didn't write anything to the effect that I think it's unreasonable to have misgivings! I made a point to highlight that I was referring to "some" posts by the use of italics. (I would add myself to the list of owners concerned about any change to this successfully functional aspect of the car.)
The "Daily Mail" element of my observation is that we appear to have people going way way way beyond expressing misgivings. On the basis of zero experience of the mooted change we have people planning to reject cars, supposedly having now established a full understanding of the Tesla direction of travel ... some believe that there are unstated aims to force owners into buying FSD, others are certain it's money alone that drives the agenda (pun intended)! The thread has become a mess of opinions and aggressive finger pointing at what "they" are doing.
All I'm really saying is chill out folks.
For those of us not jaded by missed promises and de-grades of features there is hope that the FSD beta looks very impressive and is already way better at “freeway” driving than the production stack.
I hope the past few years of missed promises and stagnation of AHB/HBA, wipers, self parking etc are due to the production stack getting frozen to allow the re write. Having been involved in many software migrations myself it’s sadly inevitable albeit painful for paying customers.
While Elons “this year” aren’t worth the paper they are written on, the removal of USS is a pretty strong indication it’s legitimately ready to replace the production stack.
I hope the past few years of missed promises and stagnation of AHB/HBA, wipers, self parking etc are due to the production stack getting frozen to allow the re write. Having been involved in many software migrations myself it’s sadly inevitable albeit painful for paying customers.
While Elons “this year” aren’t worth the paper they are written on, the removal of USS is a pretty strong indication it’s legitimately ready to replace the production stack.
Zilla91
Active Member
What freeway driving? FSD Beta reverts back to the current “production stack” when it’s on the freeway/highway/motorway. FSD Beta is only for city streets at this moment in time until the single stack.
(Might have to start taking a shot every time someone mentions the single stack)
(Might have to start taking a shot every time someone mentions the single stack)
@Durzel - absolutely spot on with your comments - every single word.
It sums up my feelings and future choice of car. I bought the Tesla emboldened by the hype, just had to have FSD, no test drive, never been in one - My gaps and paint are superbly good and I do love the car. I just drive it a bit differently - ready to dip the lights at night, see a truck, cover the throttle in case it phantom brakes.
I wouldn't buy another new 3 because I don't see a lot of the upgrades as upgrades and consider my 2020 3P to be the model 3 at its peak and I've added the stuff i really like - power boot and frunk, illuminated sill plates, rear reflectors now illuminated with sequential indicators plus a shed load of other bits that please me.
There is a lot to like with Tesla - and the Ranger service is brilliant, if new features just worked perfectly most of the time rather than a little bit of the time, I would be so happy Id shag Elon and be a fanboy.
It sums up my feelings and future choice of car. I bought the Tesla emboldened by the hype, just had to have FSD, no test drive, never been in one - My gaps and paint are superbly good and I do love the car. I just drive it a bit differently - ready to dip the lights at night, see a truck, cover the throttle in case it phantom brakes.
I wouldn't buy another new 3 because I don't see a lot of the upgrades as upgrades and consider my 2020 3P to be the model 3 at its peak and I've added the stuff i really like - power boot and frunk, illuminated sill plates, rear reflectors now illuminated with sequential indicators plus a shed load of other bits that please me.
There is a lot to like with Tesla - and the Ranger service is brilliant, if new features just worked perfectly most of the time rather than a little bit of the time, I would be so happy Id shag Elon and be a fanboy.
Saw this thread this morning. It reminded me of the way Tesla are pushing Vision Only.
Products with obvious, fatal flaws. The teams tried to make it work rather than do something different.
Products with obvious, fatal flaws. The teams tried to make it work rather than do something different.
I did some R&D work many years ago with the first gen Hololens and those in charge of the project were very insistent on us using some new tracking tags and library for Unity. Unfortunately the resolution of the cameras just wasn't good enough and the end user experience was awful (basically tracking was lost if your head was a normal distance from the object or it miraculously was tracking and you moved even slightly.) The new tags were ditched and went back to old school giant QR tags which worked ok-enough-ish (the Hololens is awful), but I never heard the end of it. It took me literally an afternoon to figure out what they wanted wasn't going to work, and I ultimately delivered something that worked well enough for proof of concept with an understaffed team, but whatever, they couldn't get over the fact that the tags were slightly larger than the ones they wanted me to use - last I heard they were planning to retry it with a different team.
Welcome to software engineering.
SalisburySam
Active Member
Agree with all but last sentence. Apple is renowned for doing just that and is far from surely dying. Remember how “courageous” they were when the headphone jack was removed? How you no longer get a charging wart with new iPhones? How TouchID became FaceID with no going back? There were failures as well to be fair. One of the biggies was the touch bar on laptops. “Gee, I love and constantly use my TouchBar,” said no one ever, and Apple finally got over it. Similarly the squatty scissor key structure.
SalisburySam
Active Member
I would agree this would be the case in most scenarios, though I strongly doubt it for Tesla. Software gets thrown out to the vehicles seemingly to see what sticks, what’s fun, and to replace hardware thus reducing build costs. Given that TeslaVision without radar has not delivered functional parity yet (speed limits, driving distance, mandatory wipers/high beams control, etc.), I’d be pleasantly surprised if it can even approximate parity with USS information. Those two factors alone do not give me confidence of production stack readiness. That of course does not mean Tesla won’t roll it out anyway, giving all of us the opportunity to enjoy the results…and fill many new threads in this and other fora.
Apple are in a bit of a unique position, I think, which makes them somewhat exempt to this perspective.
If you are all in on the Apple ecosystem then you basically have to suck it up with whatever decisions they make. There isn't really a compelling alternative if you have other devices that you don't have any issues with. That is to say - if you've got a MacBook Pro, Apple Watch, etc and you're a bit annoyed about them removing the headphone jack on the next iPhone - you're probably not going to go to Android, you'll just hold off upgrading for a while, or give in. You would be in a net negative position by transitioning away from using an iPhone, in terms of the cohesion of the ecosystem, certainly more than you lose from no longer being able to plug in headphones.
Also Apple removed the headphone jack when Bluetooth headphones were already established, and they provided a Lightning to 3.5mm adapter to transition people. Tesla are not offering anything with this, they are subtracting functionality and not offering owners any alternative other than to "wait and see".
As you have pointed out even Apple aren't infallible. The Touch Bar was a solution looking for a problem, which has quietly gone away. I have a TouchBar MBP and the lid on mine is closed 90% of the time I'm using it, rendering it unavailable, and the other 10% it doesn't feature in my workflow at all. Tesla similarly could be wrong about removing USS. If they don't achieve accuracy and consistency with a camera based setup then I imagine owners will be annoyed. Imagine having Park Assist that either doesn't work or can't be trusted, depending on the weather, etc?
Took ages to search who i bought from. However it was via Amazon. (link below)
IPOTCH 1 Pair Rear Fog Bar Light LED Rear Bumper Turn Signal Light Fit for Tesla Model 3 2016-21 Red Trim Frame Accessories - Fishbone : Amazon.co.uk: Automotive
Buy IPOTCH 1 Pair Rear Fog Bar Light LED Rear Bumper Turn Signal Light Fit for Tesla Model 3 2016-21 Red Trim Frame Accessories - Fishbone at Amazon UK. Free delivery on eligible orders.
www.amazon.co.uk
They replace the rear reflectors low down in the bumper, they reflect but also are tail lights, brake lights and sequential indicators, you get an adaptor to plug into the tail light assembly - so no joints, soldering etc to do - all plug and play - and the remarkable thing - jut £69.08 and they are brilliant
I think your post will resonate with many of us. It certainly has for me.
I would add that the drive train in the Tesla's is still the best. At this moment in time, for me, its literally all they have left over other brands. If you are a drive train fan, Tesla is still a good choice today. Outside of that though, the shortcomings are becoming more and more exposed when compared with other car manufacturers, which is a shame really. There was a while back I thought that my car was going to keep getting better but it hasn't quite worked out like that.
OTA updates are great of course, but when you are used to certain things and they fart about with them, in can be annoying too. You win some you lose some when it comes to that I guess. Some people love getting updates. I would rather they leave it alone if its working, and update the things that are poor, like auto wipers and lights. Although saying that, I'm not sure if these are hardware limitations rather than software. Probably hardware as someone alluded to earlier.
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