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[uk] UltraSonic Sensors removal/TV replacement performance

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Look…. It’s money. Only money. That’s the only reason things like this happen. Tesla will come up with any old crap to provide a narrative… but it’s about money. Does wandavision work the same or better than sensors? They don’t care. It’s money.

I’ve a YLR. It’s great. I’m intending to swap to a YP next month. Quite simply, if there are no sensors on collection day, they can shove it up their arse. Wipers are crap, auto headlights are crap…. This will likely be crap. You know… things that other manufacturers mange without issue.

Money money money
 
Look…. It’s money. Only money. That’s the only reason things like this happen. Tesla will come up with any old crap to provide a narrative… but it’s about money. Does wandavision work the same or better than sensors? They don’t care. It’s money.

I’ve a YLR. It’s great. I’m intending to swap to a YP next month. Quite simply, if there are no sensors on collection day, they can shove it up their arse. Wipers are crap, auto headlights are crap…. This will likely be crap. You know… things that other manufacturers mange without issue.

Money money money
I see something more insidious. Tesla are making their cars ever more difficult for a human driver with basic autopilot only. I detect a clear push to needing FSD and then having it drive you around like a timid learner.
 
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Reactions: candida
I didn’t say “appropriate degree” though, did I? People use USS to park their cars in tight spaces or navigate down narrow passages all of the time. Sometimes those spaces - e.g. garages - requires specific precision. If Vision/cameras can’t replicate that, then it is a downgrade from existing functionality in that respect, would you agree?
Would I agree to an 'if' when none of us have the faintest idea? What 'if' it's an upgrade ?

This also isn't directly the point I was addressing, which was that humans can manage to drive with vision only, so it's valid to extrapolate that to the car. USS is a nice feature, gives confidence, but we also managed before it existed. I don't really believe that for most cars there is anywhere you can only go or park because of USS.
 
Would I agree to an 'if' when none of us have the faintest idea? What 'if' it's an upgrade ?

This also isn't directly the point I was addressing, which was that humans can manage to drive with vision only, so it's valid to extrapolate that to the car. USS is a nice feature, gives confidence, but we also managed before it existed. I don't really believe that for most cars there is anywhere you can only go or park because of USS.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. You seem to have ignored the points I made about humans not driving with compromised vision, so cameras and eyes are not analogous even if you disregard the AI vs brain aspect.

I have a problem with the mindset that "we can do everything with just vision so why can't the car?", on a number of fronts. Most important of them is that technology continues to surpass human ability in many areas, and I embrace the idea that technology can augment the driving experience, not only in making things more comfortable and effortless for the driver, but also provide data precision that human vision is unlikely to be able to replicate.

As I said - there are people who rely on USS to drive their cars into tight spaces on a daily basis, there's threads on here elsewhere from people talking about real world experiences involving USS. I can't tell down to the inch how far away I am from an obstacle when driving, USS can. Will cameras be able to do that? On a good day I doubt it simply due to the positioning (the rear one will probably fare better, in the day at least, than the front one which is some distance from the front of the car). Also just because you don't feel you need this functionality doesn't invalidate the problem for those that do. For whatever reason you seem to be unwilling to give experiences other your own any consideration.

"We managed fine before X" is such a myopic point of view that I can only assume you're being obtuse (condescension seems to be a recurring theme). We managed fine before pretty much everything you can think of in cars, computers, and technology in general. It doesn't mean anything, really, and it certainly doesn't mean things were better or equivalent back then. We own cars that drive themselves and you talk of how we managed fine back in the 00s or whenever ultrasonics were uncommon. You could make the same intellectually hollow point about ABS, electronic stability, traction control, etc.

I could accept that at some point in the future Tesla and/or other manufacturers might produce cars with cameras that are comparable or better than human vision is, with heating, IR blasting (for night vision), self-cleaning, etc. We're not at that point though, not by a long shot, and Tesla are pushing ahead with this changeover anyway. I also have doubts that other manufacturers will go down that road, when USS, rain sensors, etc already do their specific jobs very well.
 
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I'm really not sure I make any use of my sense of smell when driving a car, and my ears don't really help much from inside the car. I can drive a car using my eyes, and if they were positioned on the outside of the car, they would be even more useful. I also haven't evolved Lidar capabilities but am able to avoid obstacles pretty well as my AI manages to construct a pretty good 3D understanding based on the limited camera/eye input.

I've never had a camera blocked or blinded when parking, sure I can imagine it happening in very niche locations, but USS aren't foolproof either.
Please note that it is illegal to drive with both ears covered. There is a reason why they want you to retain your sense of hearing.
As for smell - before brakes catch fire they smell pretty badly. If you wait to see smoke/fire then it is too late.
 
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. You seem to have ignored the points I made about humans not driving with compromised vision, so cameras and eyes are not analogous even if you disregard the AI vs brain aspect.

I have a problem with the mindset that "we can do everything with just vision so why can't the car?", on a number of fronts. Most important of them is that technology continues to surpass human ability in many areas, and I embrace the idea that technology can augment the driving experience, not only in making things more comfortable and effortless for the driver, but also provide data precision that human vision is unlikely to be able to replicate.

As I said - there are people who rely on USS to drive their cars into tight spaces on a daily basis, there's threads on here elsewhere from people talking about real world experiences involving USS. I can't tell down to the inch how far away I am from an obstacle when driving, USS can. Will cameras be able to do that? On a good day I doubt it simply due to the positioning (the rear one will probably fare better, in the day at least, than the front one which is some distance from the front of the car). Also just because you don't feel you need this functionality doesn't invalidate the problem for those that do. For whatever reason you seem to be unwilling to give experiences other your own any consideration.

"We managed fine before X" is such a myopic point of view that I can only assume you're being obtuse (condescension seems to be a recurring theme). We managed fine before pretty much everything you can think of in cars, computers, and technology in general. It doesn't mean anything, really, and it certainly doesn't mean things were better or equivalent back then. We own cars that drive themselves and you talk of how we managed fine back in the 00s or whenever ultrasonics were uncommon. You could make the same intellectually hollow point about ABS, electronic stability, traction control, etc.

I could accept that at some point in the future Tesla and/or other manufacturers might produce cars with cameras that are comparable or better than human vision is, with heating, IR blasting (for night vision), self-cleaning, etc. We're not at that point though, not by a long shot, and Tesla are pushing ahead with this changeover anyway. I also have doubts that other manufacturers will go down that road, when USS, rain sensors, etc already do their specific jobs very well.
There are so many unknowns that are being interpreted by us idiots that have very little knowledge. I fully agree that Tesla need to replicate the benefits that drivers get from Parking Assist when they switch to camera only, but I'm not able to speculate if they will or won't. I don't agree that we need inch measurements, but we need a capability to make it easy to avoid obstacles. They could bring in a super accurate 3D view that allows us to see around the car, that would be fine.

I think it's also perhaps wrong to assume that these new cars without USS will have the same cameras as we have on our cars today, these new cars could well have more cameras that we have today. They did state that there were no plans (or similar words) to change existing cars. We do know there is a new camera supplier and who is to say those new parts won't include other new features, IR emitters, better warmers etc.

As a human driver I look out through the same windows, only the front one has a windscreen wiper and I manage OK. I'm not saying people don't need these features, just making the point that we used to use a Vision Only system before USS, so it's imaginable to me that vision is sufficient. My human eyes have the same flaws in the dark or blinded by sun, my AI allows me to manage. Yes my head is less fixed, but also it only looks one way at a time, so swings-roundabouts.
 
Sure I have, that why I said they don't help 'much' as it's not an everyday experience.
That is a major part of why Tesla FSD will probably never materialize - they are focusing on “good enough”. Driving is a very complex task with a long tail of possible scenarios distribution. 90% solution does not work, especially when the failure is not very graceful. Imagine a driver, who is facing an unknown situation, just takes off their hands from the wheel and give up. Because that is exactly what FSD does.
They have to solve not for 90% but for 99.99% of the cases because that is what humans do. When faced with unknown situations we try to destruct it and bring it to a known situation. From that perspective, Tesla FSD is as dumb as a traffic light - when it cannot solve the problem it turns the red (or yellow in EU) flashing lights.
 
I think someone already already touched on the point, but it looks as though Tesla are heading towards producing a pretty underwhelming driver’s car and for a paid upgrade, an overwhelmingly brilliant self-driving car.
If it works, that isn’t going to win the driver’s market for sure. There will be too many better equipped cars on offer.
If it fails, well, we don’t want to go there!
 
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Reactions: Ratch
That is a major part of why Tesla FSD will probably never materialize - they are focusing on “good enough”. Driving is a very complex task with a long tail of possible scenarios distribution. 90% solution does not work, especially when the failure is not very graceful. Imagine a driver, who is facing an unknown situation, just takes off their hands from the wheel and give up. Because that is exactly what FSD does.
They have to solve not for 90% but for 99.99% of the cases because that is what humans do. When faced with unknown situations we try to destruct it and bring it to a known situation. From that perspective, Tesla FSD is as dumb as a traffic light - when it cannot solve the problem it turns the red (or yellow in EU) flashing lights.
I bought FSD on my first Tesla, EAP on the second but I have no interest in a car that is going to drive itself everywhere. If it can drive itself on a motorway such that I don't need to take controls without a minute of warning, then as far as I'm concerned, it's revolutionary and worth 10x more than I've paid. Sure, I understand Tesla think they will create a fleet of full autonomous taxis; I don't really care if this happens next year or in 50 years. Everyone's excitment about the City Streets Beta in the US holds no interest to me, I'm far more interested in the way in which our own vehicle regulations are assessing and allowing cars to drive on motorways without constant driver attention.

Even as a Taxi fleet it doesn't need to be able to handle everything, as long as it stays safe. Waymo and Cruise are operating today, and there are examples where they get stuck and stop, doesn't really seem like a big deal to me.
 
Reading some comments makes me wonder how many of you actually work in any company involved in R&D.
I didn't get a Tesla to become a guinea pig for R&D. I thought their cars were good enough to drive as is. Sadly, it seems like I am just a test driver for a company that charges a huge amount for technology that is beaten by a car that I could get for a grand from a local back street garage.
 
I really hope the USS removal is a great success and therefore puts all the luddites on this thread into their place. Why do you people think you know better than those actually doing the R&D?
Because auto wipers, auto high beams, auto lane change, auto parking and autopilot.

Call me a luddite if you want, but it’s better than being a gullible lemming.

I’ve got a bridge I’d like to sell you. It’ll be ready in 2 weeks. It’s 🔥
 
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