LiamPope
Member
They explicitly stated that the replacement will have performance parity, or better, with the removed USS. So no, putting out rubbish won't cut it.
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[uk] UltraSonic Sensors removal/TV replacement performance
- Thread starter randompixel
- Start date
They explicitly stated that the replacement will have performance parity, or better, with the removed USS. So no, putting out rubbish won't cut it.
UrbanSplash, thanks for your reply, I am informed by Citizens advice that its been passed onto Trading Standards. I agree that at this moment is one of the best selling cars but also one causing mountains of endless dissatisfied customers,
History lesson, UK has many examples, back in 1992 there was Ratner's jewelry, it had 330 shops and outlets, one wrong word and customers lost faith in the very popular best selling brand, within a few months its plunged £122.3 million resulting in the closure of all its 330 shops and Ratner went out of business. Lesson for Tesla, don't take customers for fools.
MrBadger
Badger out
I don’t think EM as evert said that they sell cheap crap but Tesla is worth zero without FSD and Tesla shares are overvalued tweets come pretty close to perilous statements.
people paying for EAP/FSD where features are not available that they paid extra for as well as park assist.
True but that’s a tiny fraction really, I’d be surprised if the attach rate for EAP/FSD was >10% in Europe.
No one should be buying FSD! If you are thinking about it, don’t!
No punitive damages in the UK. There wouldn't be much to gain from loss of use damages.
This, we are not in the United States of law suits.
Damages have to be real and measurable in reality.
Lord Farquad
2022 MYLR W/B/20s/Tow bar. Previously 2021 M3SR+
Interesting article indicating that HW4 cars are being delivered across the pond. With NO extra cameras…..
driveteslacanada.ca
Tesla begins Model S/X deliveries with HW4, but we still don't know much about the new computer
Tesla has quietly begun deliveries of the Model S and Model X equipped with their latest Hardware 4.0 (HW4/AP4) self-driving computer. The deliveries have started even though Tesla hasn’t officially announced anything related to HW4, [...]
driveteslacanada.ca
Qwickshot In my opinion its not what park assist is worth (which I believe you have very much under estimated) as the EAP charged at £3400.00. I personally believe that where Tesla may have issues is on taking the money and not delivering the goods, if it was a small trader you would be accusing them of fraud by taking money and not delivering the goods. It could also be claimed that if auto park, park assist, summons and special summons was the reason that persuaded you purchased the vehicle as it was of high importance, you could argue that the vehicle without those features is not fit for purpose., therefore a refund or part refund would not be acceptable.
Regarding the FSD, that is a different issue as it was explained at great length, that purchasing the FSD would automatically entitle you to future functions as improvements were achieved. By way of example if tomorrow Tesla announced that it had reached level 4 of FSD, you can bet the price of FSD would rocket.
My reason for purchasing FSD for £6k plus, which included EAP was to be able to pull the car out of my garage or tight parking space and to open the door for access as I find it difficult to squeese out of a partially open door having had knee replacement. Likewise park assist is important to me as using both sensors and cameras it was relatively easy to park in tight spaces without scuffing my bumpers or third party vehicle and importantly avoids parking long distance to find larger parking bay.
Don't disagree about parking but back before sensors they used to make windows in the boot where you could see more behind you. Some of Tesla's cars are hard to see much at all but they can get away with it when you've cameras. If they didn't people would I think have a lot more to say about it.
I don’t think I am underestimating how much park assistance is worth. The number was based on what others charge.
Porsche charge £522 for front and back park assist, revising camera and 360 camera views on the Tycan. They are also known for their options costing £lol
So a cheaper manufacturer like Tesla, on a much cheaper car like a Model 3 or Y, you’d expect that option (if it was available on its own) to cost a lot less. Tesla doesn’t even have a 360 camera view. In my view £450 is the upper end of what it would cost on a Tesla spec sheet (again if it was available as an option).
I purposely stayed away from EAP and FSD because the attach rate is really low but the fundamental behind the point is not any different.
You are conflating what something costs with what something is worth. For some people - repeated on here ad nauseum - the missing feature may make the car very difficult (in some cases - impossible) to use. So the "worth" of the feature is in extreme cases the entire cost of the car. For others, the loss of utility may make the car a vastly different proposition to use compared to the they ordered and expected.
CWT3LR, Spot on, plus "paid for in full" If Tesla did not have that the Park assist, Park, smart summons and summons I would not have purchased a the vehicle. In my opinion if the features are not restored to be as good or better, the vehicle sold to me does not meet my needs and not fit for purpose.
It just has to be sales figures that Tesla is focused on rather than dedicating more time to tweaking and fixing those things that don't work or don't work very well, If customers snap up all they can produce Tesla are not under any pressure to knuckle down and get it done, surely if there was a resistance to purchase because of those omissions or failures then more people would be moved into the team that is working on the software - or have software teams working 24hrs a day 7 days a week in shifts. We all know Elon gets what he wants even if that means firing people and going off on one - currently he doesn't have any pressure being applied - unlike the old days where the company was on the brink of going bust developing the model 3.
In the last 6 months since USS was removed Tesla made just over 550,000 model 3s and Ys and revenue generated for 2022 for Tesla as a whole was 83.5 billion dollars. Those 550,000 cars without USS saved Tesla 8.25 billion dollars - and additional clear profit. (based on a cost of 150 dollars per car)
The price reduction this January can only be because demand is slowing - no longer a 6 to 9 month wait for a car - and with more Giga factory's planned production will ramp up further. Elon is a shrewd business man.
The production teams actually making the cars are achieving mindboggling production targets - the technical staff that are employed on the software development just has to be a very small team by comparison and are not working to any challenging targets which leads me to two conclusions - 1 - the people engaged in software development are just not skilled enough or 2- the current hardware on the vehicles just isn't capable of delivering the aims of the company no matter how well written the software coding is.
@FastLaneJB I haven't a clue what you are talking about with windows in the boot of a car. (I've had cars with rot holes in the boot - does that count?)
However, the value of USS or indeed any feature of a car differs from person to person, some may absolutely need a feature whilst others cant see a value in it at all.
I've driven since 1974, as a teenager I couldn't afford a new car or even a new-ish one - old bangers were probably a better description, My first car was a Hillman Minx, followed by Mini, Hillman Hunter, Capri Mk1, Capri mk2 - none of these cars had power steering, no central locking, wind down windows, no parking aids no abs etc - but that was the norm and we all drove and parked without whacking stuff.
As the years progressed cars became more refined, safer and much better equipped - and once you have additional features its unlikely you would ever want to have a car without them.
I have absolutely no trouble parking any car I've driven, and indeed I was a professional driver HGV class one for 8 years with a 40 foot box trailer back in late 70s early 80s - so i do consider myself a competent driver. I have never found the cameras on cars to be useful when reversing - you cant judge distance with a 2d image - so I have always used door mirrors and i find them a cinch to use, however, pre parking sensors If i was reversing into a tight spot parallel parking I would often open the drivers door and lean out to look at the rear to judge the distance, with sensors you just don't have to do that - and whilst relying on the beeps may not be technically correct, I think most drivers do because they are exceptionally reliable, plus if your parking in an unfamiliar setting their value is greater. Its not just the parking either as the lack of sensors have crippled other functions that used them - additional features customers paid extra for.
I think we all agree Tesla have made a big boob with removing the USS long before they have an alternative solution, whatever the reason they did it, be supply issues or over optimistic evaluation of the TV progress or just plain greed in hoping they could get away with it and save a shed load of money, Its about time they took responsibility and immediately address the issues by keeping those without USS informed on progress of TV with regular updates, offering them compensation for the long wait - or the offer of a retrofit to those customers that absolutely want sensors - no matter what the cost is to do it, doing nothing is just damaging the reputation of the marque, and once damaged it takes years to recover from -- Remember Vauxhall - vehicles rotting away in your lunch break - that took over 20 years for the stigma to subside - with a continuing perception to some who consider Vauxhall as cars for people that don't like cars.
Tesla did such a good job in those earlier years to convince people to shell out considerable sums of money in a car that hadn't even been produced, they have led the way in EV development but seem determined to throw it all away in the pursuit of profit, I do see what they are aiming for but believe they are letting perfection get in the way of good.
In the last 6 months since USS was removed Tesla made just over 550,000 model 3s and Ys and revenue generated for 2022 for Tesla as a whole was 83.5 billion dollars. Those 550,000 cars without USS saved Tesla 8.25 billion dollars - and additional clear profit. (based on a cost of 150 dollars per car)
The price reduction this January can only be because demand is slowing - no longer a 6 to 9 month wait for a car - and with more Giga factory's planned production will ramp up further. Elon is a shrewd business man.
The production teams actually making the cars are achieving mindboggling production targets - the technical staff that are employed on the software development just has to be a very small team by comparison and are not working to any challenging targets which leads me to two conclusions - 1 - the people engaged in software development are just not skilled enough or 2- the current hardware on the vehicles just isn't capable of delivering the aims of the company no matter how well written the software coding is.
@FastLaneJB I haven't a clue what you are talking about with windows in the boot of a car. (I've had cars with rot holes in the boot - does that count?)
However, the value of USS or indeed any feature of a car differs from person to person, some may absolutely need a feature whilst others cant see a value in it at all.
I've driven since 1974, as a teenager I couldn't afford a new car or even a new-ish one - old bangers were probably a better description, My first car was a Hillman Minx, followed by Mini, Hillman Hunter, Capri Mk1, Capri mk2 - none of these cars had power steering, no central locking, wind down windows, no parking aids no abs etc - but that was the norm and we all drove and parked without whacking stuff.
As the years progressed cars became more refined, safer and much better equipped - and once you have additional features its unlikely you would ever want to have a car without them.
I have absolutely no trouble parking any car I've driven, and indeed I was a professional driver HGV class one for 8 years with a 40 foot box trailer back in late 70s early 80s - so i do consider myself a competent driver. I have never found the cameras on cars to be useful when reversing - you cant judge distance with a 2d image - so I have always used door mirrors and i find them a cinch to use, however, pre parking sensors If i was reversing into a tight spot parallel parking I would often open the drivers door and lean out to look at the rear to judge the distance, with sensors you just don't have to do that - and whilst relying on the beeps may not be technically correct, I think most drivers do because they are exceptionally reliable, plus if your parking in an unfamiliar setting their value is greater. Its not just the parking either as the lack of sensors have crippled other functions that used them - additional features customers paid extra for.
I think we all agree Tesla have made a big boob with removing the USS long before they have an alternative solution, whatever the reason they did it, be supply issues or over optimistic evaluation of the TV progress or just plain greed in hoping they could get away with it and save a shed load of money, Its about time they took responsibility and immediately address the issues by keeping those without USS informed on progress of TV with regular updates, offering them compensation for the long wait - or the offer of a retrofit to those customers that absolutely want sensors - no matter what the cost is to do it, doing nothing is just damaging the reputation of the marque, and once damaged it takes years to recover from -- Remember Vauxhall - vehicles rotting away in your lunch break - that took over 20 years for the stigma to subside - with a continuing perception to some who consider Vauxhall as cars for people that don't like cars.
Tesla did such a good job in those earlier years to convince people to shell out considerable sums of money in a car that hadn't even been produced, they have led the way in EV development but seem determined to throw it all away in the pursuit of profit, I do see what they are aiming for but believe they are letting perfection get in the way of good.
And - with no prospect of "specific performance" of the contract being realistic - it could be that Tesla is forced to repurchase the vehicle at its original cost, less a relatively modest deduction for the value of the use derived whilst under your ownership.
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