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US Federal $7,500 Electric Vehicle Credit Expiry Date By Automaker
- Thread starter seattlite2004
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- Model 3
There was an update today? It’s been saying the $7500 rebate is in effect since everyone was invited on 6/27
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
The update is that the configuration URLs are linked from the Model3 page even if you don't have a reservation. The presumption is that they updated those pages at the same time since they have new wording for people that don't have a reservation.
The page is at https://3.tesla.com/model3/design?redirect=no
voip-ninja
Give me some sugar baby
Supposedly pre-orders (you know, those of us who ordered over 2 years ago and gave Tesla an interest free loan) have priority for their desired configuration.
.... supposedly.
Dr. J
Active Member
I'm late to this discussion, but 4 pages earlier there was commentary about this article: 11,362 Est. U.S. Tesla Deliveries In June, IRS Language On 200k Unclear. Maybe moot at this point, but what the hey. The part of the article about when title to a new vehicle passes to the buyer was totally wrong.
The IRS says: "For purposes of the 30D credit, a vehicle is not considered acquired prior to the time when title to the vehicle passes to the taxpayer under state law." The author relied on his wife:
quote:
It was also pointed out to us, title transfers can take time and different states have different requirements on the time frame for completing the transfer. I have absolutely no experience in this area. Luckily, I had an inside source that deals with new vehicle title transfers every day: my wonderful wife. I relayed the situation to her and asked her about how long it takes to complete a title transfer here in Texas. “It depends on a lot of factors,” she said. “But for new vehicle title transfers from a dealership or Tesla it generally takes 2.5-3 weeks for the complete process. Sometimes a bit longer.”
/quote
However, there is a problem: the length of time the title transfer takes has nothing to do with when title passes to the buyer--at least in Texas, which is the operative example in the article. Section 501.0234(f) of the Texas Transportation Code says in part:
"....equitable title to a vehicle passes to the purchaser of the vehicle at the time the vehicle is the subject of a sale that is enforceable by either party." 2005 Texas Transportation Code CHAPTER 501. CERTIFICATE OF TITLE ACT
When does a vehicle purchase become enforceable by either party? When money and the "keys" change hands, i.e. at delivery. At least in Texas, this whole debate is a lot simpler than folks are making it out to be. And I believe the 200,000 threshold and the start of phase out less than two quarters later depends on the same measurement--delivery of the vehicle.
There's probably a moral to the story about depending on your spouse as a source for your article or for legal advice, but *if* my spouse was a competent attorney, I would definitely depend on her advice in this matter.
The IRS says: "For purposes of the 30D credit, a vehicle is not considered acquired prior to the time when title to the vehicle passes to the taxpayer under state law." The author relied on his wife:
quote:
It was also pointed out to us, title transfers can take time and different states have different requirements on the time frame for completing the transfer. I have absolutely no experience in this area. Luckily, I had an inside source that deals with new vehicle title transfers every day: my wonderful wife. I relayed the situation to her and asked her about how long it takes to complete a title transfer here in Texas. “It depends on a lot of factors,” she said. “But for new vehicle title transfers from a dealership or Tesla it generally takes 2.5-3 weeks for the complete process. Sometimes a bit longer.”
/quote
However, there is a problem: the length of time the title transfer takes has nothing to do with when title passes to the buyer--at least in Texas, which is the operative example in the article. Section 501.0234(f) of the Texas Transportation Code says in part:
"....equitable title to a vehicle passes to the purchaser of the vehicle at the time the vehicle is the subject of a sale that is enforceable by either party." 2005 Texas Transportation Code CHAPTER 501. CERTIFICATE OF TITLE ACT
When does a vehicle purchase become enforceable by either party? When money and the "keys" change hands, i.e. at delivery. At least in Texas, this whole debate is a lot simpler than folks are making it out to be. And I believe the 200,000 threshold and the start of phase out less than two quarters later depends on the same measurement--delivery of the vehicle.
There's probably a moral to the story about depending on your spouse as a source for your article or for legal advice, but *if* my spouse was a competent attorney, I would definitely depend on her advice in this matter.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
Thomas Edison
Active Member
Some relevant authorities:
"4.07 Acquired. A vehicle is not “acquired” before the date on which title to that vehicle passes under state law." IRS Notice https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-09-89.pdf
You might think that the normal UCC rule on sale goods applies which would state: "(2) Unless otherwise explicitly agreed title passes to the buyer at the time and place at which the seller completes his performance with reference to the physical delivery of the goods," § 2-401. Passing of Title; Reservation for Security; Limited Application of This Section. That would suggest that all deliveries made in June will count in June.
But at least some states, perhaps most or all, separately regulate the passage of title of autos. For instance California courts considered this issue and a court stated:
"The transfer of title to a vehicle registered in California is accomplished under Vehicle Code section 5600: “No transfer of the title or any interest in or to a vehicle registered under this code shall pass, and any attempted transfer shall not be effective, until the parties thereto have fulfilled either of the following requirements: (1) The transferor has made proper endorsement and delivery of the certificate of ownership to the transferee ... and the transferee has delivered to the department ... the certificate ....”; or “(2) The transferor has delivered to the department ... the appropriate documents for the registration or transfer of registration of the vehicle....” (Veh.Code, § 5600, subd. (a).)" Quartz of S. California, Inc. v. Mullen Bros., 151 Cal. App. 4th 901, 907–08, 61 Cal. Rptr. 3d 54, 58 (2007) That was back in 2007 and the current law is still roughly the same. California Code, Vehicle Code - VEH § 5600 | FindLaw
So title is not transferred until either the buyer delivers the signed over certificate of title to the DMV or the seller has delivered the title transfer paperwork to the DMV. Tesla can control both of those by not signing over the title to the buyer so the buyer could never deliver a signed over title cert (this is what would happen in a private sale), and they could sit on the paperwork until July 1 for a bunch of deliveries made in June.
If all M3s are originally titled in California the above California rule may allow Tesla to control the passage of title for all states where title is moving from one state to another. Interesting issue if states have different rules, but probably they are all similar or can at least rely on the Cal rule.
If this is right, Tesla could do a bunch of deliveries at the end of June and not send the paperwork in until July 1 and the June deliveries should count for July for purposes of IRC 30D.
"4.07 Acquired. A vehicle is not “acquired” before the date on which title to that vehicle passes under state law." IRS Notice https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-09-89.pdf
You might think that the normal UCC rule on sale goods applies which would state: "(2) Unless otherwise explicitly agreed title passes to the buyer at the time and place at which the seller completes his performance with reference to the physical delivery of the goods," § 2-401. Passing of Title; Reservation for Security; Limited Application of This Section. That would suggest that all deliveries made in June will count in June.
But at least some states, perhaps most or all, separately regulate the passage of title of autos. For instance California courts considered this issue and a court stated:
"The transfer of title to a vehicle registered in California is accomplished under Vehicle Code section 5600: “No transfer of the title or any interest in or to a vehicle registered under this code shall pass, and any attempted transfer shall not be effective, until the parties thereto have fulfilled either of the following requirements: (1) The transferor has made proper endorsement and delivery of the certificate of ownership to the transferee ... and the transferee has delivered to the department ... the certificate ....”; or “(2) The transferor has delivered to the department ... the appropriate documents for the registration or transfer of registration of the vehicle....” (Veh.Code, § 5600, subd. (a).)" Quartz of S. California, Inc. v. Mullen Bros., 151 Cal. App. 4th 901, 907–08, 61 Cal. Rptr. 3d 54, 58 (2007) That was back in 2007 and the current law is still roughly the same. California Code, Vehicle Code - VEH § 5600 | FindLaw
So title is not transferred until either the buyer delivers the signed over certificate of title to the DMV or the seller has delivered the title transfer paperwork to the DMV. Tesla can control both of those by not signing over the title to the buyer so the buyer could never deliver a signed over title cert (this is what would happen in a private sale), and they could sit on the paperwork until July 1 for a bunch of deliveries made in June.
If all M3s are originally titled in California the above California rule may allow Tesla to control the passage of title for all states where title is moving from one state to another. Interesting issue if states have different rules, but probably they are all similar or can at least rely on the Cal rule.
If this is right, Tesla could do a bunch of deliveries at the end of June and not send the paperwork in until July 1 and the June deliveries should count for July for purposes of IRC 30D.
You are leaving off two important clauses:
So there is no need to deliver (or for DMV to process) the paperwork, it can be simply placed in a mailbox. This, of course, does not address a Tesla purposeful delay.
For that, you need to look at "when and as required under code".
The requirement is 15 days:
California Code, Vehicle Code - VEH §5753
see also
California Code, Vehicle Code - VEH § 5751 (weak but shows title transfer is at time of signing)
California Code, Vehicle Code - VEH § 5901 (sale as opposed to title transfer, but shows ownership/ (which is what the title represents, passes at time of signing))
Dr. J
Active Member
No, other states can not and do not rely on California law. The whole point of state law is that applies to that state. Perhaps you are thinking of court rulings on federal law.
Not a lawyer, but full faith and credit clause of US constitution: states within the United States have to respect the "public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state." One of the reasons that your driver license from California will work in Texas regardless of potential difference in DMV rules etc. And this seems like one of the issues that may fall into the clause, as motor vehicle authorities are pretty much under state authority.
I meant Tesla can rely on California law because the car is built in California and it is property owned in California and governed by California law and title of California property only passes when California law says it does.
Tesla may be able to rely on that even when another state says something else.
Which means another state would recognize that you bought your car in Cali based on when Cali said you bought your car in Cali. But that doesn't mean Texas needs to recognize the purchase of a car in Texas the same way that Cali recognizes a purchase in Cali.
Michigan will accept that I purchased a Tesla in Ohio, but Michigan will not let me purchase a Tesla in Michigan...
Only for purchases in Cali. A purchase in another state is bound by that state's laws. Unless the person picks up the car in Cali, there is no Cali title, only a title of the state they live/ bought it in. Consider also the fee schedule for a purchase in Cali has no bearing on a purchase in Ohio. And I, as a Michigan resident, can't use the ability to purchase a Tesla in Cali to purchase a Tesla in MI...
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
that's...not quite as universal as you suggest...(for example try and use a conceal carry permit issued by most US states in California and see how that works out for you...)
Are you disagreeing with something relevant? The point was that Tesla can deliver lots of cars in June, but they count for July.
More specifically, the missing language isn't relevant to that point.
There are two ways to transfer title in Cal.
The first way, that has the "when and as required under this code " language is just one way. That isn't the way that Tesla will transfer title. That first way is likely for when between private parties the personal seller "signs over" the title to the buyer and then the buyer has to file the title transfer and get a new title cert.
The second way, labeled, (2) states, in full.
"The transferor [Tesla] has delivered to the department or has placed in the United States mail addressed to the department the appropriate documents for the registration or transfer of registration of the vehicle pursuant to the sale or transfer except as provided in Section 5602 [providing for the helpful but not relevant to this issue point that the transferor isn't liable for the parking, abandoning, or operation of the vehicle in various circumstances]"
Either way can be used by Tesla. But Tesla isn't going to sign the back of the title cert and tell the buyer to go use method one. It will use method two and make the mailing or other delivery on its own. I don't see a statutory time limit that applies to method, but it should allow at least a few days. Even if 15 days is allowed, that is more than enough to do lots of June deliveries.
California Code, Vehicle Code - VEH § 5901 would be relevant if the IRS notice said "4.07 Acquired. A vehicle is not “acquired” before the date on which a sale is complete and consummated under state law"
But it doesn't say that; instead it says "4.07 Acquired. A vehicle is not “acquired” before the date on which title to that vehicle passes under state law."
So title passing under state law is what is relevant, not when a sale is complete and consummated under state law.
And the quote of the statute was incomplete only because that is what the court literally wrote in its 2007 opinion and it was a more succinct and relevant description of the relevant rule.
Bottom line: Lots of June deliveries can be attributed to July for purposes of the tax credit.
More specifically, the missing language isn't relevant to that point.
There are two ways to transfer title in Cal.
The first way, that has the "when and as required under this code " language is just one way. That isn't the way that Tesla will transfer title. That first way is likely for when between private parties the personal seller "signs over" the title to the buyer and then the buyer has to file the title transfer and get a new title cert.
The second way, labeled, (2) states, in full.
"The transferor [Tesla] has delivered to the department or has placed in the United States mail addressed to the department the appropriate documents for the registration or transfer of registration of the vehicle pursuant to the sale or transfer except as provided in Section 5602 [providing for the helpful but not relevant to this issue point that the transferor isn't liable for the parking, abandoning, or operation of the vehicle in various circumstances]"
Either way can be used by Tesla. But Tesla isn't going to sign the back of the title cert and tell the buyer to go use method one. It will use method two and make the mailing or other delivery on its own. I don't see a statutory time limit that applies to method, but it should allow at least a few days. Even if 15 days is allowed, that is more than enough to do lots of June deliveries.
California Code, Vehicle Code - VEH § 5901 would be relevant if the IRS notice said "4.07 Acquired. A vehicle is not “acquired” before the date on which a sale is complete and consummated under state law"
But it doesn't say that; instead it says "4.07 Acquired. A vehicle is not “acquired” before the date on which title to that vehicle passes under state law."
So title passing under state law is what is relevant, not when a sale is complete and consummated under state law.
And the quote of the statute was incomplete only because that is what the court literally wrote in its 2007 opinion and it was a more succinct and relevant description of the relevant rule.
Bottom line: Lots of June deliveries can be attributed to July for purposes of the tax credit.
Yes, I'm disagree that Tesla can shift the transfer to July.
First off, I think this is the wrong tree: The number acquired is not what Tesla reports to the IRS. Manufacturers report vehicles sold to consumers or retail dealerships.
26 U.S. Code § 30D - New qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicles
Internal Revenue Bulletin: 2009-48 | Internal Revenue Service
Second, if Tesla didn't sign over the title, yet accepted payment from the bank, isn't that sort of fraud?
Third, regardless of processing time, once properly executed, the vehicle/ title is deemed to be the purchaser's from the time of purchase (hence the retroactive abandonment/ tickets clause). If not, the odometer statement/ certification would be perjury since the car would have exceed that before the paperwork was fully filled. Just looked at CA titles, they have a separate issue and odometer date. I would say the odo date is when the title transferred, and the issue date is when the title was recorded. But that's me..
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, and it's certainly not definitive, but during the process of ordering a RWD or Dual Motor version, the site shows a 3 - 5 month delivery and includes the $7500 tax credit in the "price after incentives and gas saving" in the lower banner and on the Summery/Payment page.
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