Very Difficult decision..Canceling my Sig X reservation

[tonyinc]

Well, my wife nor I would be considered "soccer mom/dad's" and the lack of folding is completely unnecessary for us. I can count on one hand the number of times we've folded the seats down on our vehicles over the last 5 years. And that was only because I'm currently driving a Suzuki SX4 (not much trunk space). I think the demographic is much wider than "soccer mom's" and that people who absolutely "need" folding seats are a very small minority. To be honest, the argument for folding seats being necessary reminds me of the argument people make for 100 mile EVs...in that people generally over-estimate their range requirements.

I honestly can't fathom the need for more room than you get with the current configuration, but that hardly means people don't absolutely need it. Tesla would do well to offer the option in the future.

I guess every other SUV/CUV/Minivan/Compact Hatchback that can carry a floor lamp or shovel has that ability for the small minority who ever buy such exotic and huge things.

 

[AlMc]

I think Tesla knew exactly what they were doing by changing the 2nd row seats to not be folding down seats and instead be more functional for soccer moms.

Tesla has turned this car into the ULTIMATE SOCCER MOM SUV. I have observed many people express disappointment about the 2nd row seats not folding down...it is a fair disappointment as at the Model X reveal the 2nd row seats folded down then. However, I have not observed any soccer moms' disappointment of the car. I have a few young kids that my wife is psyched to have this SUV to use, the friends I have with young kids also are psyched to get this SUV...
+To soccer moms, the X is Utility to extreme
-To men(and women) wanting to carry big things around a lot the X is not,

Two different audiences and it is very difficult to be everything to both audiences, Tesla decided to focus on women for this X which I agree with as being the right strategic thing for them to do.

My point is, for every forum member on here who's justifiably disappointed and cancelling their X reservation, there are 10 new soccer moms who are learning about the X for the first time from the news or friends and starting to make plans to reserve an X for their next car.

Bottom line: If they know they have two different audiences why not have option #1 be the current offering and have option #2 be fold down seats from the launch?

 

[efusco]

As an avid Tesla supporter, I am disappointed at all the responses to the lack of cargo capacity as "well it's not for hauling lumber".

The current configuration is a MUCH BIGGER MISS than not being able to haul 24' lumber.

With the second row all the way forward, you only have 60". This excludes much more than large hauling jobs. It also excludes floor lamps, long rakes, a single high-back dining room chair...etc. That is even much less than a compact hatchback car.

I would suggest that people who really want folding seats (and can wait on Tesla time) do so because I guarantee as people realize how limiting the current config is, they will sell very few 7 seat versions. I predict the 6 seater will be by far the most popular, at least you could fit some of the items above.

How embarrassed would you be if you had to call a friend with a Civic hatchback to help you bring home a floor lamp because it will not fit in your X?

My guess is they wanted folding seats (at least as an option) but they are so far behind schedule and had to go with what they had. What they basically made is a really really sweet people tram with less utility than a Mini Clubman. In the current configuration, calling it an SUV/CUV or even a Mini Van is ridiculous.

So disappointed after waiting years, could have upgraded my old SUV for something more efficient a long time ago.

X reservation 16,448

Now hold on, just because the seat won't fold flat doesn't mean that there isn't still usable space forward of the bottom/back of the second row seat. They tilt pretty far forward. Yea, the entire flat area won't be usable, but your aforementioned floor lamp is still going to fit, just propped up on the back of the second row seat.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

I guess every other SUV/CUV/Minivan/Compact Hatchback that can carry a floor lamp or shovel has that ability for the small minority who ever buy such exotic and huge things.

The entire point was that people over-estimate the need...not that people don't use it. Not to mention that it would appear both of those things would currently fit in a Model X without folding the 2nd row seats.

 

[Nevek]

A common element in these decisions is less about the negatives of the current flavor of X and more about the positives of the S. Not buying a reserved X now is not the same as not buying one ever, and most of us who have an S today are getting a new lesson in how versatile that car really is.

 

[SeminoleFSU]

I'm putting the over / under at 12 months for 2nd row folding seat option. Won't be as nice as the current seats, but seems like a big enough deal for Tesla to add. Its not like they aren't continually upgrading / changing things.

Ditto... my gut feeling is they could have done this but Elon wanted a flat floor with storage under the seats... more difficult but not impossible with folding 2nd row. They probably just need a little more time, and maybe not even with design... but instead with crash testing.. I bet it takes forever to get the gov to certify something as safe. Just my $.02

 

[Yggdrasill]

As an avid Tesla supporter, I am disappointed at all the responses to the lack of cargo capacity as "well it's not for hauling lumber".

The current configuration is a MUCH BIGGER MISS than not being able to haul 24' lumber.

With the second row all the way forward, you only have 60". This excludes much more than large hauling jobs. It also excludes floor lamps, long rakes, a single high-back dining room chair...etc. That is even much less than a compact hatchback car.

I would suggest that people who really want folding seats (and can wait on Tesla time) do so because I guarantee as people realize how limiting the current config is, they will sell very few 7 seat versions. I predict the 6 seater will be by far the most popular, at least you could fit some of the items above.

How embarrassed would you be if you had to call a friend with a Civic hatchback to help you bring home a floor lamp because it will not fit in your X?

My guess is they wanted folding seats (at least as an option) but they are so far behind schedule and had to go with what they had. What they basically made is a really really sweet people tram with less utility than a Mini Clubman. In the current configuration, calling it an SUV/CUV or even a Mini Van is ridiculous.

I agree the length is disappointing. Just checked my i30 CW (Hyundai Elantra Touring), and I can fit stuff up to 68" into the back, not pushing the front passenger seat forward or using the diagonal or anything like that. So that's 8" greater in a car that's around 20" shorter. I've carried lots of different items in the car that I definitely wouldn't be able to carry in a 7-seat Model X.

The Model X will be a step down in utility for me, but I hope I can still make it work.

 

[eloder]

I guess every other SUV/CUV/Minivan/Compact Hatchback that can carry a floor lamp or shovel has that ability for the small minority who ever buy such exotic and huge things.

I've been able to fit both a floor lamp and a shovel in my smart car.

The hyperbole is a bit much.

Bottom line: If they know they have two different audiences why not have option #1 be the current offering and have option #2 be fold down seats from the launch?

As others mentioned they probably had to make a choice when coming down to the wire, and for a high-end 7 passenger luxury SUV, they opted for a high-end 7 passenger luxury SUV before offering a 7 passenger car that doubles as a mediocre pickup truck.

While there appears to be even representation from TMC, which of course has natural bias, there's extremely little mention in the overwhelmingly positive press reports from the exclusive MX press time offered to outlets.

I wouldn't be surprised if once we have fold-down seats, people will bring up the old interior quality complaints found on the MS. Or there will be safety implications. Looking at how different the seat design is between the MS, MX, and other high-end luxury vehicles there definitely have to be compromises with the fold-down seat setup.

I just don't think Tesla wanted to launch a vehicle that was inferior, personally. Imagine the reviews if getting into the third row meant getting past a side-attached seat belt, like most other vehicles with folding seats (note: as researched before on these boards, there is no current production precedent for both having folding seats while simultaneously having seat-attached seat belts). Imagine the initial launch reviews if getting into the third row seat very hard because--as most people note--the MX is pretty darn small for a three row vehicle. Imagine how pointless the FWD praise would be if you would have to still bend down and manually move forward a folding seat, defeating the purpose of the FWD of being able to load without bending.

These are the features getting praise with the MX from the press. Folding 2nd row seats are an afterthought that's present on every other vehicle, but the above is uniquely all coming together for the MX and no other vehicle.

This is why Tesla does not have second folding row seats initially, and why they may never do it.

 

[TSLAopt]

Bottom line: If they know they have two different audiences why not have option #1 be the current offering and have option #2 be fold down seats from the launch?

Maybe they will eventually, but for now if they were to build out both options capabilities (suppliers, engineering the manufacturing lines differently, etc.) then the delay may have been another several months or year+ perhaps...I'm happy to got the launch off and are focused on women/soccer-moms. This business is very different than others because they are much more supply constrained than most businesses, especially with the Model X at this point.
Perhaps as they are ramping up Model X and getting through the huge backlog of 'soccer mom' orders they will at the same time be working to figure out how to offer this other option of the folding down 2nd row seats and then announce that as an available option 1 year from now. Or if demand stays through the roof by the soccer mom population they may delay that option further.

It is an amazing car for soccer moms/dads. That is what I and my wife are and we are 110% in on this, safety and utility for kids in car seats are #1/#2 for us...if the 2nd row seats were standard folding down seats we would only be 90% in on the X and still get it, but that extra ease of putting kids into their seats this 2nd row offers and ability to stow things under that 2nd row seat moved us to 110% all in with the X, heck we may trade in our S and have 2 Model X's at some point.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I agree the length is disappointing. Just checked my i30 CW (Hyundai Elantra Touring), and I can fit stuff up to 68" into the back, not pushing the front passenger seat forward or using the diagonal or anything like that. So that's 8" greater in a car that's around 20" shorter. I've carried lots of different items in the car that I definitely wouldn't be able to carry in a 7-seat Model X.

The Model X will be a step down in utility for me, but I hope I can still make it work.

I measured my CR-V and I have at least 68" as well. This is slightly better than 60" (and way better than the 50" measurement of the 2nd row seats aren't pushed forward). I can actually remove the rear seat bottoms and move the front seats up and I get over 72" of length. If I fold down the passenger seat, that number can be 80" or longer.

Now for my rant :wink::

To all those who say that they only carry around people 99.999% of the time: Good for you! I carry people and cargo in my vehicle on a weekly, if not daily basis. While I don't haul lumber regularly, I'm a do-it-yourselfer and probably spend $500+ a month at Home Depot. Over the years, I've brought home half a dozen 12 foot trees (rear hatch glass open), hundreds of insulation batts, hundreds of 70 pound landscaping blocks, tons of mulch, several storm doors, a couple pre-hung doors, many tons of wood pellets, dog food, queen bed frames, etc. When I've ordered 32+ sheets of drywall or 40+ sheets of siding and plywood or 10 cubic yards of dirt or crushed granite at once then I've had things delivered. However, I've been able to move everything else myself over the years. For years, everything I owned would fit in my CR-V (but not all at once :wink and I've actually used it alone when moving between houses twice.

I also use my current vehicle to regularly haul my large dogs around (and sometimes a couple of their canine friends at the same time). My dogs are big, with the largest weighing over 120 pounds. They are both tall Rhodesian Ridgebacks with long legs and the height of my CR-V fits them perfectly. Over the years, my rear seats have been down more than up. Typically one of the rear seats is ALWAYS in the folded-down position so that I have room for 3 adults, 2 large dogs and cargo, camping supplies, etc.

While the X might work for my dog hauling needs (even with the sloped roof), I don't think it would handle my weekly trips to Home Depot. Yes, I could keep the CR-V for my hauling needs but if I do that then I would probably opt for the S instead of the X.

I'm trying to have ONE vehicle that will fit all of my needs. My current vehicle is 18.5 years old and the reason I still drive it is because it fits my needs and it actually gets pretty good mileage for a car its size and age! I actually have averaged 26.9 MPG over the past 194,000 miles and still get over 30 MPG from time to time, thanks to the thin Colorado air. I'm not going to buy a truck as my current vehicle handles nearly all of my needs and a trailer wouldn't work for spontaneous purchases. As Elon stated, the goal is to get to sustainable transportation and keeping around an ICE just because the seats can't fold down doesn't make sense when one vehicle with folding seats could eliminate the need for an ICE vehicle. Many years ago, I began searching for a replacement for my CR-V but set a goal of buying something that had AWD and at least 35 MPG. I'm still searching. I waited for the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV for years only to see it still hasn't been released in the US. When the Volvo V60 plugin came out, I was psyched until I found they had no plans on releasing it in the US. XC60 plug-in hybrd? Concept only. XC90 T8? Yes, please! I waited over a year for it and finally crossed it off my list when I found how 'far' it could go on battery power alone. Plus for that price I could get a 70D. I looked at the S and read up on the X and finally decided the X would meet my needs and allow me to go ICE-free. I made a reservation based on the features it was supposed to have.

I'm not canceling just yet. My X reservation number is pretty high so it's possible Tesla will change the 2nd row before my number is called. Since the 'reveal' a few days ago, I am definitely leaning way more towards the S now...or maybe back to the Outlander PHEV. I know...not the same class at all but it would meet my needs...

 

[AlMc]

Maybe they will eventually, but for now if they were to build out both options capabilities (suppliers, engineering the manufacturing lines differently, etc.) then the delay may have been another several months or year+ perhaps...I'm happy to got the launch off and are focused on women/soccer-moms. This business is very different than others because they are much more supply constrained than most businesses, especially with the Model X at this point.
Perhaps as they are ramping up Model X and getting through the huge backlog of 'soccer mom' orders they will at the same time be working to figure out how to offer this other option of the folding down 2nd row seats and then announce that as an available option 1 year from now. Or if demand stays through the roof by the soccer mom population they may delay that option further.

It is an amazing car for soccer moms/dads. That is what I and my wife are and we are 110% in on this, safety and utility for kids in car seats are #1/#2 for us...if the 2nd row seats were standard folding down seats we would only be 90% in on the X and still get it, but that extra ease of putting kids into their seats this 2nd row offers and ability to stow things under that 2nd row seat moved us to 110% all in with the X, heck we may trade in our S and have 2 Model X's at some point.

I get it. It works for you, and many others and I really am happy for you (really, not kidding). But there are many others, myself included, that it does not.

 

[ohmman]

Al (and Nigel, AO, etc.), I feel for all of you. I have a production reservation around 8k, have "only" been on the list for about 18 months (before I even took delivery of my MS), and I feel the strain of the decision on me. Your hands were forced.

I think that anyone who dismisses the decision doesn't realize the commitment of time, money, and emotions that have gone into the wait. To have that extended anticipation, with an eventual reality of having to walk away is very difficult in any circumstance, no matter how right it is.

Bonnie said it upthread, and I've said this elsewhere - I'm hopeful the time comes when the MX is for me. I will not cancel my reservation until they ask me to configure and I've hopefully had the chance to drive one and see it in person. Today, if I were forced to decide, I'd very sadly walk away.

I've started to think the Model 3 CUV (if indeed there is one) may be a better choice anyway. And CarlK, if falcon wings are going to be the future of SUV/CUV ingress/egress, I'm assuming Tesla will include them on that vehicle. We'll see about that. :wink: Now if I can only wait three more years.

 

[tonyinc]

I've been able to fit both a floor lamp and a shovel in my smart car.

The hyperbole is a bit much.



As others mentioned they probably had to make a choice when coming down to the wire, and for a high-end 7 passenger luxury SUV, they opted for a high-end 7 passenger luxury SUV before offering a 7 passenger car that doubles as a mediocre pickup truck.

While there appears to be even representation from TMC, which of course has natural bias, there's extremely little mention in the overwhelmingly positive press reports from the exclusive MX press time offered to outlets.

I wouldn't be surprised if once we have fold-down seats, people will bring up the old interior quality complaints found on the MS. Or there will be safety implications. Looking at how different the seat design is between the MS, MX, and other high-end luxury vehicles there definitely have to be compromises with the fold-down seat setup.

I just don't think Tesla wanted to launch a vehicle that was inferior, personally. Imagine the reviews if getting into the third row meant getting past a side-attached seat belt, like most other vehicles with folding seats (note: as researched before on these boards, there is no current production precedent for both having folding seats while simultaneously having seat-attached seat belts). Imagine the initial launch reviews if getting into the third row seat very hard because--as most people note--the MX is pretty darn small for a three row vehicle. Imagine how pointless the FWD praise would be if you would have to still bend down and manually move forward a folding seat, defeating the purpose of the FWD of being able to load without bending.

These are the features getting praise with the MX from the press. Folding 2nd row seats are an afterthought that's present on every other vehicle, but the above is uniquely all coming together for the MX and no other vehicle.

This is why Tesla does not have second folding row seats initially, and why they may never do it.

Again nobody is asking for a mediocre pickup truck or some kind of hauling machine. Just the most basic utility that exists in nearly every car as a previous noted his Hyundai Elantra has.
So you say you can fit those items in a Smart Car any I am using hyperbole. You are proving my point.

It has been suggested that I can fit a rake in the X by putting the middle seats forward and putting it at an angle resting on the top of the seat back. I just measured my rake and it is 73". Using the pythagorean theorem, assuming a 45 degree angle, that would give a total of 67".
I will concede maybe if you put it diagonal it could fit, and maybe just maybe the top of the 2nd row is a little further forward than the base and it would fit somehow.

My point is that this car is a step down in utility from ANY car, not just SUV/CUV/Mini Van.

I am keeping my reservation only because of the 6 seat option and I suspect may others will opt for 6 seats or cancel because of this.

 

[TSLAopt]

I get it. It works for you, and many others and I really am happy for you (really, not kidding). But there are many others, myself included, that it does not.

Yes, and I'm genuinely sorry for your disappointment. It would be like if when the X reveal happened it turned into more of a man-truck pick-up truck that wasn't so good for carrying kids but had lots of other cool features people hauling things around really liked. THen I would be seriously contemplating the cancelling of my X reservation.

The reason I chimed in on this thread is that as I was reading through this I initially got the impression that most people are generally unhappy with the X reveal from this seat-gate storage space downgrade. I just want to make sure other people reading this forum aren't as likely to get this same impression I got and realize that there are quite a lot of people out there (a different audience such as people with kids in car seats) that are extremely happy with the 2nd row seats and are all-in with the X even more so than before.

 

[AnOutsider]

Al (and Nigel, AO, etc.), I feel for all of you. I have a production reservation around 8k, have "only" been on the list for about 18 months (before I even took delivery of my MS), and I feel the strain of the decision on me. Your hands were forced.

I think that anyone who dismisses the decision doesn't realize the commitment of time, money, and emotions that have gone into the wait. To have that extended anticipation, with an eventual reality of having to walk away is very difficult in any circumstance, no matter how right it is.

Bonnie said it upthread, and I've said this elsewhere - I'm hopeful the time comes when the MX is for me. I will not cancel my reservation until they ask me to configure and I've hopefully had the chance to drive one and see it in person. Today, if I were forced to decide, I'd very sadly walk away.

I've started to think the Model 3 CUV (if indeed there is one) may be a better choice anyway. And CarlK, if falcon wings are going to be the future of SUV/CUV ingress/egress, I'm assuming Tesla will include them on that vehicle. We'll see about that. :wink: Now if I can only wait three more years.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ohmman again."

Stop making sense mman.

 

[Saxena]

We are definitely in the 'neutral' camp regarding the seats. Just really like the ride/height of an SUV/CUV, so the 2nd row seat configuration isn't a factor in our decision to buy the X. But can definitely sympathize with those where it does make a diff. Hope Tesla does come out with other config options for those that do require them. BTW, the awesome pano windshield is a big plus!

 

[X-Wing]

there is no current production precedent for both having folding seats while simultaneously having seat-attached seat belts

Yes there is, namely the Mercedes-Benz V-Class.

Tesla, this right here is your benchmark for cargo/seating.

The 2nd row can have either two captian's chair or 3 seat bench just like the Tesla. The 2nd row captain's chair can even rotate to face the 3rd row.

The 3rd row can also be optioned with two captian's chairs instead of the 3 seat bench shown here.

Note that each seat can fold down individually (even for the 60/40 bench).

Both 2nd and 3rd row seats can be removed completely for maximum cargo carrying capacity.

 

[Ocelot]

Again nobody is asking for a mediocre pickup truck or some kind of hauling machine. Just the most basic utility that exists in nearly every car as a previous noted his Hyundai Elantra has.
So you say you can fit those items in a Smart Car any I am using hyperbole. You are proving my point.

It has been suggested that I can fit a rake in the X by putting the middle seats forward and putting it at an angle resting on the top of the seat back. I just measured my rake and it is 73". Using the pythagorean theorem, assuming a 45 degree angle, that would give a total of 67".
I will concede maybe if you put it diagonal it could fit, and maybe just maybe the top of the 2nd row is a little further forward than the base and it would fit somehow.

My point is that this car is a step down in utility from ANY car, not just SUV/CUV/Mini Van.

I am keeping my reservation only because of the 6 seat option and I suspect may others will opt for 6 seats or cancel because of this.

without any a , b, c squared stuff. i would be willing to make a significant wager you can fit your rake in the model x, in less than 30 seconds without giving it much thought. :biggrin:

on a side note. yesterday while driving i really tried to pay attention to what was inside other peoples cars. (mostly stopped at lights). the vast majority were single driver, nothing in back, SUV's.

 

[copyhacker]

your aforementioned floor lamp is still going to fit, just propped up on the back of the second row seat.

This business about shovels and lamps bugged me too, so I grabbed a tape measure and a push broom and opened up the back of my Pilot.

Sure I could hypothetically fold down the 2nd row and haul some bigger items. I can think of one time in the past year that I've had to do that. I'm sure others need the extra space on a regular basis and are very disappointed. But let's not get carried away and forget our geometry.

 

[bonnie]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ohmman again."

Stop making sense mman.

I fixed that for you.