Why a 215 mi range?

[dhanson865]

I wondered what the least range I could find in a new vehicle was. I didn't grab every vehicle but I did search through the low MPG ones and skipped a lot of duplicates.

There must be some rounding up there or a reserve gallons not used for the EPA range not to match the highway mpg x gallons in tank but:

240 miles EPA range 2015 Dodge Viper SRT 21 mpg hwy x 16 gallon tank (21x16 = 336)
252 miles EPA range 2015 Cadillac CTS 18 mpg hwy x 18 gallon tank (18x18 = 324)
266 miles EPA range 2015 Chevrolet Camaro 18 mpg hwy x 19 gallon tank (18x19 = 342)
286 miles EPA range 2015 Lamborghini Aventador Roadster 16 mpg hwy x 23.8 gallon tank (16x23.8 = 380.8)
313 miles EPA range 2015 smart fortwo (either one) 38 mpg hwy x 8.7 gallon tank (38x8.7 = 330.6)
313 miles EPA range 2015 Chevrolet Spark 39 mpg hwy x 9.2 gallon tank (39x9.2 = 358.8)
318 miles EPA range 2015 Ferrari 458 17 mpg hwy x 22.7 gallon tank (17x22.7 = 385.9)

So 215 miles EPA is still below even the worst gas cars but I still find it very usable since I use a Nissan Leaf with under 100 miles epa range.

 

[JeffK]

Many of the high end sports cars require premium unleaded and have 20+ gal tanks due to poor fuel economy. I don't envy someone filling up a 20+ gal tank with premium $$$.

 

[melindav]

1) Elon Musk said two things about the ≡:
- The base model will be single motor RWD
- The Cheapest base model will get at least 215 miles of range (200 real world) miles.

2) Thanks for the tip on cold weather. I knew it was less, but I didn't know it was 75%! It's always nice to hear from people with real world experience. That's a LOT of range loss... Reason #822 to live in Southern California.

a day late to reply, but wanted to point out TeslaLiving's post on the Model3OwnersClub forum comparing cold weather range under various temps, road conditions & speeds.

 

[jkk_]

a day late to reply, but wanted to point out TeslaLiving's post on the Model3OwnersClub forum comparing cold weather range under various temps, road conditions & speeds.

Nice find. It seems on a cold day with snow and ice on the road TeslaLiving used 57% more than rated range. Which really proves the point, some of us really need more range / bigger batteries even though there are some posts that almost claim that "no one will need more than 215 miles / 50-55kWh battery ever!"

 

[Red Sage]

So 215 miles EPA is still below even the worst gas cars but I still find it very usable since I use a Nissan Leaf with under 100 miles epa range.

Good point. But, when you consider that most people stop to fill up when the needle indicates 1/4 tank remaining...? It seems most people consider themselves 'empty' after only using 75% of their actual range. If you check that metric against the ranges you posted:

180 miles EPA range 2015 Dodge Viper SRT
189 miles EPA range 2015 Cadillac CTS
200 miles EPA range 2015 Chevrolet Camaro
215 miles EPA range 2015 Lamborghini Aventador Roadster
235 miles EPA range 2015 smart fortwo
235 miles EPA range 2015 Chevrolet Spark
239 miles EPA range 2015 Ferrari 458​

Most people fill up well before 250 miles have been driven anyway. Take a look at what the maximum range would be if the Tesla Model ☰ only had 75% of the range of performance variants of other cars in the segment:

228 -- Cadillac ATS-V (304 miles)
237 -- BMW M3 (316 miles)
254 -- AUDI S4 (338 miles)
270 -- Mercedes-AMG C63 S (360 miles)​

 

[PJFW8]

If there were available Superchargers every 50 miles or so it might work. The problem relates to availability along a reasonable travel route. When I drive now I include my imaginary Tesla. To travel from Asheville, NC to Milwaukee has a few steps where 220 plus miles between charging is needed even in winter. That is why about 300 epa would be pretty important. 320 plus would be wonderful. On the other hand, my Florida vacation works at 200 with no problem.

 

[diamond.g]

a day late to reply, but wanted to point out TeslaLiving's post on the Model3OwnersClub forum comparing cold weather range under various temps, road conditions & speeds.

Man that is kind of depressing, going from 265 miles to 113 in 10F weather with rain/snow. That would be like 63 miles in the Model 3...

 

[jkk_]

Man that is kind of depressing, going from 265 miles to 113 in 10F weather with rain/snow. That would be like 63 miles in the Model 3...

Yeah.. and 10F isn't even that cold or uncommon...

 

[Alketi]

If there were available Superchargers every 50 miles or so it might work.

They'll be far closer than that by 2020. Tesla alone is going to double their number just next year.

But, when you factor the continued and eventual electrification of the entire new car fleet, superchargers (Tesla/generic) will be littered all along the highway, and at every mall and shopping center in the country. Once there's a demonstrable profit to be made, they'll be like local gas stations, except with virtually no maintenance. They'll be everywhere -- just not quite when we hopefully get our Model 3s.

 

[SageBrush]

Yeah.. and 10F isn't even that cold or uncommon...

These range reductions should be viewed as very general rules of thumb because the use of cabin heating and/or pre-heating the car and battery before a drive make a big difference. This is why one of the two options that I really want is the cold weather package.

I was thinking about winter cabin heating on my drive to work yesterday, after I learned that Tesla uses a combined AC type system for battery and cabin temperature control. If highway driving is 15 kW and 5% is discharged as heat from the battery, some 750 watts might be available for cabin heating. Let's hope the M3 is well insulated ;-)

Sound about right ?

 

[JeffK]

One thing to keep in mind is that if the cell geometry is truly larger which means greater volume, it means that once the cells warm up they will cool off more slowly than those in the Model S in theory. Who knows, we might see better cold weather performance in the Model 3 if not all future battery packs.

 

[RangerRick]

They'll be far closer than that by 2020. Tesla alone is going to double their number just next year.

I took his comment to mean doubling the number of *superchargers*, not necessarily the number of supercharger *locations*... I assumed much of the "doubling" to be adding more charging stations to existing supercharger stops, which wouldn't turn into a stop every 50 mild.

 

[RangerRick]

which wouldn't turn into a stop every 50 mild.

ERGH miles. This is what I get for attempting to post while on mobile.

 

[Red Sage]

It amazes me how many of you want to continue bad habits learned from using ICE vehicles when moving to EV. The constant expression that using Superchargers should be brainless, mindless, and require no effort or forethought is rather depressing. There is no need for Superchargers to be available every 50 miles or at every exit. Before you know it, the minimum range available in a Tesla Motors product will be 300 miles. Then 400. Then 500. If the company takes the time to build Superchargers every 50 miles, most of them will be skipped, even by Model S 60 owners that have the feature activated.

I make the comparison to the 'Last Chance GAS' stations that existed in my youth. Back in the good ole bad ole days of leaded gasoline and four barrel carburetors, a car with a 20 gallon fuel tank and 8 MPG on the highway had to stop for fuel rather often on road trips. Back then, if the needle touched 'E' the car stopped. So, you absolutely had to buy gas at those remote 'bridge' locations between the arse end of nowhere and the back lot of where-the-heck-am-I. Otherwise, you'd have a long, long walk ahead of you.

Today? Those spots are long gone. With an expectation of a future of electric cars, comes the likelihood that ranges will increase tremendously. Eventually to the point where no one stops just to charge. They'll stop to fulfill biological needs, on their own schedule, and charge as well. Tesla Motors cannot afford to have hundreds upon hundreds of empty, underused, underutilized, unloved, unknown Superchargers just sitting out there in the wilderness gathering dust in the hope that someone, somewhere, will eventually need to stop to charge... maybe.

 

[SageBrush]

The constant expression that using Superchargers should be brainless, mindless, and require no effort or forethought is rather depressing.

Have you watched the Pixar film Wall-E ?

 

[Yggdrasill]

Tesla Motors cannot afford to have hundreds upon hundreds of empty, underused, underutilized, unloved, unknown Superchargers just sitting out there in the wilderness gathering dust in the hope that someone, somewhere, will eventually need to stop to charge... maybe.

That won't happen. Tesla needs to add a lot of superchargers everywhere once production ramps up to 500,000 per year or even 1,000,000 per year. If they pick the locations fairly well, every supercharger they install will be busy for the next few years. And having superchargers every 50 miles along busy routes means you can stop whenever you want to, not when you're forced to. And people won't stop at the same superchargers. Some will skip a given supercharger while others will stop. This means you can distribute the load better. Especially if the car can have up to date information about supercharger availability at each location. Furthermore, if one location drops out due to a transformer issue or something, it's not a problem.

 

[SageBrush]

I know averages can be deceiving but I want to add a little perspective to this question of "how many SCs are needed." There are 3750 chargers in the US today, thus about 3750*24 = 90,000 cars serviceable a day. If each car on average charges 90% OFF SC, then 900,000 cars would saturate the system presuming daily charge, but that is not the case. A charge of 200 miles is closer to 5 days of use on average, so the SC network today would be saturated by 4,500,000 cars.

If each charger was unused 16 of every 24 hours a day, 1,500,000 cars can be serviced. These figures suggest that Tesla should look for bottlenecks rather than throw up chargers to blanket a road

 

[Dan Detweiler]

One quick reminder on the cold weather bit. It really is all about driving on a cold battery. Once the battery warms up losses are much more mundane. With the ability to pre-condition (pre-warm) a Tesla before you set out via the Tesla app, it makes the cold weather driving much easier to handle. From various owners videos I have seen, a preheated Model S will see 10-15% loss in range in 20-30 degree temps, so keep it all in perspective I guess.

Dan

 

[Booga]

It amazes me how many of you want to continue bad habits learned from using ICE vehicles when moving to EV. The constant expression that using Superchargers should be brainless, mindless, and require no effort or forethought is rather depressing. There is no need for Superchargers to be available every 50 miles or at every exit. Before you know it, the minimum range available in a Tesla Motors product will be 300 miles. Then 400. Then 500. If the company takes the time to build Superchargers every 50 miles, most of them will be skipped, even by Model S 60 owners that have the feature activated.

I make the comparison to the 'Last Chance GAS' stations that existed in my youth. Back in the good ole bad ole days of leaded gasoline and four barrel carburetors, a car with a 20 gallon fuel tank and 8 MPG on the highway had to stop for fuel rather often on road trips. Back then, if the needle touched 'E' the car stopped. So, you absolutely had to buy gas at those remote 'bridge' locations between the arse end of nowhere and the back lot of where-the-heck-am-I. Otherwise, you'd have a long, long walk ahead of you.

Today? Those spots are long gone. With an expectation of a future of electric cars, comes the likelihood that ranges will increase tremendously. Eventually to the point where no one stops just to charge. They'll stop to fulfill biological needs, on their own schedule, and charge as well. Tesla Motors cannot afford to have hundreds upon hundreds of empty, underused, underutilized, unloved, unknown Superchargers just sitting out there in the wilderness gathering dust in the hope that someone, somewhere, will eventually need to stop to charge... maybe.

Bad habits? Are you talking about staying with the pace of the highway if that happens to be 75-80mph or something else?

I agree with you that we don't need superchargers every 50 miles, but I would still like it. The point isn't to charge every 50 miles but rather not have to worry as much about planning routes as I would if I had the model 3 in hand today. The additional stations would help reduce charging congestion and also have this impact of not being required to plan things nearly as much.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

It amazes me how many of you want to continue bad habits learned from using ICE vehicles when moving to EV. The constant expression that using Superchargers should be brainless, mindless, and require no effort or forethought is rather depressing. There is no need for Superchargers to be available every 50 miles or at every exit. Before you know it, the minimum range available in a Tesla Motors product will be 300 miles. Then 400. Then 500. If the company takes the time to build Superchargers every 50 miles, most of them will be skipped, even by Model S 60 owners that have the feature activated.

I make the comparison to the 'Last Chance GAS' stations that existed in my youth. Back in the good ole bad ole days of leaded gasoline and four barrel carburetors, a car with a 20 gallon fuel tank and 8 MPG on the highway had to stop for fuel rather often on road trips. Back then, if the needle touched 'E' the car stopped. So, you absolutely had to buy gas at those remote 'bridge' locations between the arse end of nowhere and the back lot of where-the-heck-am-I. Otherwise, you'd have a long, long walk ahead of you.

Today? Those spots are long gone. With an expectation of a future of electric cars, comes the likelihood that ranges will increase tremendously. Eventually to the point where no one stops just to charge. They'll stop to fulfill biological needs, on their own schedule, and charge as well. Tesla Motors cannot afford to have hundreds upon hundreds of empty, underused, underutilized, unloved, unknown Superchargers just sitting out there in the wilderness gathering dust in the hope that someone, somewhere, will eventually need to stop to charge... maybe.
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These days, my ICE will beep at me when I get to 30 miles, and it will ask me if I'd like to be routed via navigation to the nearest gas station....

except I've tested this before....

When it says 30 miles remaining, it's really 60, as the software excludes about a gallon of gas from your range calculations, as a built-in "nanny" mechanism to make sure you get to a gas station. So yea, to your point about the car stopping when it gets to 'E'...even that doesn't happen anymore.