Winter - excessive battery range reduction...

[Skipdd]

I drove from DC to New Hampshire today in an S 100D. I charged fully last night and pre-heated for an hour this morning with outside temps at 18F. The battery heater ran for about 40 minutes before reaching its setpoint and shutting off. The cabin was up to temperature in about 10 minutes.

Between DC and New York CIty, temps stayed between 13F and 19F. Consumption was about 380 Wh/mi with cruise set at 110% of the speed limit. North of NYC, temps dropped into the single digits and consumption jumped to between 400 and 420 Wh/mi, travelling at approximately the same speeds.

The trip was great and we had no issues with Supercharging. I plugged in on a 120 volt outlet at my friend’s houwse tonight with 75% SOC. It’s supposed to drop down to -5F tonight, which is no big deal.

By the way, the 100D’s Supercharging profile is fantastic. We got 115 kW up to about 60% state of charge at the Auburn, Mass Supercharger.

Strangely, we didn’t see a single other Tesla on the road during the entire 500 mile trip. We saw a total of four others at various Superchargers, but that was it.

...was on I95 North and South yesterday - probably after you. But like you saw no other cars at Supercharger (Maryland House) which is unusual. Agree on charging with 100D - marked improvement over 85D. Interestingly, yesterday at Maryland House could only get 45KW despite being the only car there and trying 2 different chargers. I didnt need that much (wanted a buffer to get home) and we wanted a burger from Elevation Burger (really good). Would have expected less than the 118KW that it put out on Saturday, but not 45, based on battery SOC start point.

 

[bonnie]

Last night was a balmy () -18c here in Toronto and the family and I had to travel 110km return trip for a holiday dinner. 98% was highway driving at 100-110km/hr and 2 heated seats, cabin heat on. Drove in chill mode so no hard or aggressive movements. Winter tires on.

Scenario:

Preheated the cabin (and presumably the battery) for 30 min while plugged in.
Left the home with 485km range.
Drove 110km distance
Returned with 234km range.

Quite literally the battery range reduced a whopping 251km on a 110km drive. At that reduction, the remaining 234km of estimated range would give us abt 100km further actual distance.

Total actual range would have been no more than 210km off a 485km range.?!

That’s a ridiculous 57% reduction in battery range on account of cold weather even with the battery pre heated one way.

Anyone else ever experience this kind of range reduction? We drive a P100D so not sure if that matters given one of the motors cuts anyway at continuous highway speeds to incr range. I understand the affects of cold temperatures on lithium batteries but I can’t even imagine what would have happened I had a 75D modelX in this scenario. I believe this is excessive reduction. Anyone else?

I put on winter tires, properly inflated, and have taken a huge hit on range. You have both the cold AND winter tires impacting your range.

 

[ig_epower]

I feel your pain...non disclosure for northern climates. If an ICE car company ever had a 50% mileage reduction in winter...they’d be bankrupt! Lol.

While I don't experience a 50% reduction in my winter driving (more like 20 - 30%), that still relates to 2x or more efficiency than an ICE. In summer, it is 4x more efficient than gas. Sure the range is shortened - one of the cons of EV. An ICE is by its design a thermo-dynamic process so heat is never a problem for passenger comfort but it is also part of the reason for the inefficiency of the design.

So the way I look at it - winter driving just gives me less transport savings to drive my car than summer driving, but it is still better than using gas.

 

[David29]

Most of my driving is fairly short trips, especially in winter, so even though the energy use per mile is higher, range is hardy ever a concern for me. When I anticipate a longer trip, I charge to some level above my usual 70%. To me, the ability to preheat the car, and/or to keep the HVAC running when I need to ("camper mode"), offsets the disadvantage of the higher energy consumption when driving. It has been so freaking cold here in the Boston area for the past 10 days or so over the holidays that I am extremely grateful for the preheat feature!

 

[mknox]

I put on winter tires, properly inflated, and have taken a huge hit on range. You have both the cold AND winter tires impacting your range.

Depends on the tires. I use Nokian Hakka R2's which, aside from being great winter tires, have ultra low rolling resistance. I cannot detect any change in consumption when I put them on in the fall and take them off in the spring (with weather/road conditions being relatively similar at switch-over time).

 

[Destiny1701]

I put on winter tires, properly inflated, and have taken a huge hit on range. You have both the cold AND winter tires impacting your range.

Agreed they impact. Just want expecting 57% with a plugged in pre-heat one way. 30-40% as most have shared here would be what I’d consider a good average reduction. I can’t even imagine at -25 to -30....a 65% hit?

I’ll drive over this week and update my experience with range... given this coming Thursday/Friday predicted to be -22/-23c again.

The winter Pirellis (Tesla oem) are mounted.

 

[jerry33]

Depends on the tires. I use Nokian Hakka R2's which, aside from being great winter tires, have ultra low rolling resistance. I cannot detect any change in consumption when I put them on in the fall and take them off in the spring (with weather/road conditions being relatively similar at switch-over time).

The Nokian WR-g3 is also low rolling resistance. Winter tires often have as low or lower rolling resistance because of the more flexible belts. However, that doesn't make up for the increased aerodynamic drag that cold air has or the drag from water or snow.

 

[Snowstorm]

Driving around -10 to -20C recently around Toronto Canada. I see about a 30% increase in steady state energy consumption, plus about a 3kWh per trip hit to warm up a cold soaked car to less cold condition in the first 20 minute of driving. If you are plugged in and preheat for 30 min, then that 3kWh penalty goes away, though you would probably use like 5kWh of charger energy doing.

While it feels bad to loose 1/3 range, the Tesla is still way more preferable than my past ICE cats due to ability to pre-heat, no struggling engine when cold start and instant cabin heat. Whether I am cycling from 80-60% or 80-50% each day is of little consequence.

Oh one more thing, no more freezing my hands off in the cold filling up the tank on my ICE car.

 

[crash1977mtl]

Just posted this in the X forum

North of Montreal, parked overnight ~-20 C. Winter tires (Pirelli Scorpion) , properly inflated (44 PSI). Mix of 70% highway and 30% back country hilly roads.

I think everyone should assume you're going to get 50% or less range when you're dealing with real winter conditions. Obviously the warmer it gets and the more you can preheat the better.

First Drive:
Did not precondition the car, but it was plugged in.

21.71 km Driven
49.94 Rated km Used
455 Wh/km
43.5% Efficiency

Outside
-17.1 C

Inside
22.3 C

Fan Avg
8

Second Drive:
Parked outside, for about 2 hours, returned to home

21.49 km Driven
50.47 Rated km Used
455 Wh/km
43.5% Efficiency
Outside
-16.4 C

Inside
19.7 C

Fan Avg
8

 

[Destiny1701]

Just posted this in the X forum

North of Montreal, parked overnight ~-20 C. Winter tires (Pirelli Scorpion) , properly inflated (44 PSI). Mix of 70% highway and 30% back country hilly roads.

I think everyone should assume you're going to get 50% or less range when you're dealing with real winter conditions. Obviously the warmer it gets and the more you can preheat the better.

First Drive:
Did not precondition the car, but it was plugged in.

21.71 km Driven
49.94 Rated km Used
455 Wh/km
43.5% Efficiency

Outside
-17.1 C

Inside
22.3 C

Fan Avg
8

Second Drive:
Parked outside, for about 2 hours, returned to home

21.49 km Driven
50.47 Rated km Used
455 Wh/km
43.5% Efficiency
Outside
-16.4 C

Inside
19.7 C

Fan Avg
8

Wow...that would pretty much sum up my experience and why I created this thread. 50% efficiency or less is hardly what I would call inspiring confidence for ‘out of city’ winter driving. I agree other posts about the best experience nonetheless compare to an ICE car, however I have to admit, it’s changed my comfort level now: Today we drove from Caledon to Hamilton mountain to visit family and it would be a 170km trip. I actually chose the Suv over the Tesla to avoid once again worrying about running out of battery juice and secondly, to actually keep the family warm and have good cabin heat. Too much to ask?

Both those reasons were valid and I found myself actually saddened that I wanted my ICE SUV over the Tesla for the first time

 

[scottm]

I wonder what the effects would be by adding extra thickness and insulative layer as bottom cladding for the battery? Any thermal engineer care to comment on possible payback, and what kind of R factor, material, etc.. might be needed to make a difference?

If spraying on a hardening foam layer of 1 inch would make a difference I'm the kind of guy who'd actually try it. I know this would be subject to impacts and breaking off in chunks, or scraping off with speed-bump road rash... but if it's cheap and repairable (spray a little more on to fill a gap).. I'd be OK with that.

Anybody with a FLIR cam willing to hoist the car and get a shot of the belly of the beast before and after doing a battery heating cycle on a cold soaked car? Let's get this party rollin'!!

 

[Snowstorm]

I wonder what the effects would be by adding extra thickness and insulative layer as bottom cladding for the battery? Any thermal engineer care to comment on possible payback, and what kind of R factor, material, etc.. might be needed to make a difference?

If spraying on a hardening foam layer of 1 inch would make a difference I'm the kind of guy who'd actually try it.

It is not going to last very long and will mess with aero and ground clearance. I would avoid it. May loose more than you gain especially in th summer. Remember that the battery also needs to cool.

 

[sakimano]

Anyone else ever experience this kind of range reduction? We drive a P100D so not sure if that matters given one of the motors cuts anyway at continuous highway speeds to incr range

I had a 70D that I drove for a year and now I have a P90D. Thr P90D is worse on 'gas' in every scenario.

Granted I've only had the P90D for a month and since I live near you it is a terrible sample to test, but the numbers are about 60% more consumption on average than my 70d was over 17,000 kms .


My P90D has averaged about 320 wh/km for all of December, so that's about 75% more consumption than the car is rated at. Or as you put it, getting 57% of the rated range.

 

[Dax279]

Wow...that would pretty much sum up my experience and why I created this thread. 50% efficiency or less is hardly what I would call inspiring confidence for ‘out of city’ winter driving. I agree other posts about the best experience nonetheless compare to an ICE car, however I have to admit, it’s changed my comfort level now: Today we drove from Caledon to Hamilton mountain to visit family and it would be a 170km trip. I actually chose the Suv over the Tesla to avoid once again worrying about running out of battery juice and secondly, to actually keep the family warm and have good cabin heat. Too much to ask?

Both those reasons were valid and I found myself actually saddened that I wanted my ICE SUV over the Tesla for the first time

Is 170km round trip or one way? If round trip, I can’t believe you would be having an issue with that distance and your 100 model S? I would have done it with my 85. We just finished a cold spell that is likely on your way with minus 25 to minus 30 and the heater held up well.

 

[Struja]

I am seeing about a 40% reduction, which isn’t great but I would still prefer my Tesla over my old ICE car even at an 80% loss.

 

[scottm]

P cars are known and advertised to get worse mileage than non-P stablemates.
Something to do with 21" tires is a big reason..

A 1 month span in winter-only is not a fair shake so give it more time for comparison purposes.

 

[Zero CO2]

I guess the silver lining is your car started... many ICE cars have difficulty starting in weather that cold. Once I drove in -20 F weather in an Nissan that could produce no cabin heat because is was so cold. We ended up putting cardboard in front of the radiator and it helped a little, but it was down coats and cold feet the whole way. I also has a clutch freeze in my BMW in Colorado, I had to drive without a clutch for the remainder of the drive.

this is a good point ... what do you do when your car doesn't start? ICE trucks both have jumper cables .... what is the process for model S not sure I even know how to access the 12 v battery ....thought about a jump ... is there such a notion for an EV?

 

[scottm]

Look up in your manual how to access the 12volt booster posts. Different for various models over the years.

If your 12v is flat, this will be necessary to do anything with the car... including opening the charge port, in the case your HV pack is also empty. Or you need to use the console to put car into tow mode.

 

[AWDtsla]

P cars are known and advertised to get worse mileage than non-P stablemates.
Something to do with 21" tires is a big reason..

A 1 month span in winter-only is not a fair shake so give it more time for comparison purposes.

No it's not the tires. I don't have the 21's. Consumption is quite terrible even driven grandma style. When I bought it, Tesla only represented ~6% less range than the 90D. Of course, we know how Tesla is with their "specified" numbers.

 

[mknox]

Driving around -10 to -20C recently around Toronto Canada. I see about a 30% increase in steady state energy consumption.

You're doing better than me driving around the city. I see anywhere from 180 to 300% higher consumption on my shorter in-town trips. However, on my drive to Chicago over Christmas, I was only 16% higher on the trip there (temps around -1C) and 36% higher on the trip home (temps around -20C). Over the past 5 years, I have observed HUGE swings in efficiency in the winter depending on how and where you drive compared to summer when consumption numbers are very consistent and predictable.

Pre-heating extensively will lower your consumption in city driving, which may explain the difference between you and me. I just pre-heat enough to get the cabin comfy. In town, I don't care if my consumption is higher since I have way more than enough anyway. I'd rather put the juice into the car overnight at off-peak rates than pre-heat extensively at on-peak rates during the day.