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ElectricIAC
Good-Natured Rascal
FloridaJohn
Member
If the Tesla Robotaxi network was operational, you would have so many Teslas on the network that it would drive down pricing and you may never recover that $12k.
He didn't specify highway, just said FSD doesn't work, yet.
And the AP with NoA will still make turns to get you to your destination, but yes...still Autopilot.
I bought FSD when it was briefly something like $2k for EAP owners, and I still think it was a waste.
I would absolutely not spend $12k on it now, this is just fan service subscription money for Musk.
You only held your last car for 2 years.
What are the odds that FSD is achieved with current hardware on current cars, and widely released as production shipping in 2 years?
Compare that with the odds that Tesla faces a clampdown from regulators at their public beta model and is forced to disable features / move slower / go through approval testing to release FSD / etc.
Seems like a bad trade to spend $12k again.
Go take a nice vacation instead, you won't regret that.
I would absolutely not spend $12k on it now, this is just fan service subscription money for Musk.
You only held your last car for 2 years.
What are the odds that FSD is achieved with current hardware on current cars, and widely released as production shipping in 2 years?
Compare that with the odds that Tesla faces a clampdown from regulators at their public beta model and is forced to disable features / move slower / go through approval testing to release FSD / etc.
Seems like a bad trade to spend $12k again.
Go take a nice vacation instead, you won't regret that.
Basic TACC included in price is wonderful. EAP or FSD are not worth their price.
Really the $1.7k "Active Driving Assist Pro" package on my BMW iX does better on the highway than Tesla AP/EAP/NoA has.
I'm really left feeling that Musk diverted resources to FSD and blew the highway AP lead entirely in the last 2-3 years.
I'm really left feeling that Musk diverted resources to FSD and blew the highway AP lead entirely in the last 2-3 years.
I also did at the same price and I agree with you. Vision only FSD will not happen anytime soon, the simple fact is that the cars absolutely need more sensors. Two other companies already have working robotaxi services, yet Tesla still doesn't have it. The others have it because they use more sensors. At the very least Elon needs to add FLIR to the cars.
That’s impossible. Adding sensors to a Tesla is a physical addon to all of their cars. You can’t do that with a software update, and that’s one of their car’s main selling points. They could recall their cars to fit them all with sensors but that would be a nightmare.
I never said it would be a software update. And yes, Tesla would have to change their cars to accommodate more sensors. Elon has been promising FSD for a long time now and always claiming it will be here this year. Just won't happen with low resolution cameras, which don't even have 360 degree coverage. They had no problem turning off my radar, and giving me more phantom braking than what I used to get and giving me a useless brick in my car. They certainly at the very least can add a FLIR system. Some day yes, vision only will work but not anytime soon and not unless the hardware gets smarter.
Elon has a compelling argument: A human could drive the car with the current sensor-suite. Maybe they have even tested that to prove the point - who knows.
Whether the FSD HW3.0 can ever drive the car as well as a human with the current sensors is unresolved. That would require 1) HW to be fast enough, 2) Tesla to choose NN architecture capable to be trained for this, 3) Tesla to have sufficient training data, and 4) Tesla to be able to train the NN good enough for the task. I do not think they have proven any of the 1,2,3 to be true and not sure if they even can be proved to be true without 4.
We'll see
Whether the FSD HW3.0 can ever drive the car as well as a human with the current sensors is unresolved. That would require 1) HW to be fast enough, 2) Tesla to choose NN architecture capable to be trained for this, 3) Tesla to have sufficient training data, and 4) Tesla to be able to train the NN good enough for the task. I do not think they have proven any of the 1,2,3 to be true and not sure if they even can be proved to be true without 4.
We'll see
A human also has the smartest computer on the planet, the brain, to interpret the data the eyes see and ears hear. Oh and our eyes have better resolution and are self cleaning.
Yes, and I've only seen regressions since I got AP back in 2018
True but again, the software isn't anywhere close to being able to replicate human vision and the human brain thought process. It believe the software will get there but maybe not in our lifetime. So until that time comes Tesla needs to add more improved sensors. Elon keeps saying more sensors increase costs, yet Tesla has increased costs and taken hardware out of the cars, way before the chip shortage and inflation hit. They want to keep building more factories and don't have enough service centers for the current cars out there.
SunCharged
Member
I really wonder what the line in the sand looks like for actually delivering on FSD. Is this software going to be beta 5, 10, 25 years from now? This experiment with customers thousands of dollars can’t go on indefinitely, right? No one really talks about this expectation.
If you are considering buying this today at $12k listen to those of us who have it. If you have $12k burning a hole in your pocket just know you can buy FSD after you buy your car. Maybe wait for proof of concept. And if you are worried the price will go up know that technology is historically deflationary in nature. And the cars are fun to drive anyway….and regular included autopilot is good enough.
If you are considering buying this today at $12k listen to those of us who have it. If you have $12k burning a hole in your pocket just know you can buy FSD after you buy your car. Maybe wait for proof of concept. And if you are worried the price will go up know that technology is historically deflationary in nature. And the cars are fun to drive anyway….and regular included autopilot is good enough.
btownalset
Member
We (in reality it was me) bought EAP when we took delivery of our 2nd Tesla (Model Y) in June 2022. It's my wife's car and she's not a fan of the FSD Beta in my Model 3 so there was really no point spending the extra 6K. Also, the Y is now the primary road trip vehicle so that's another reason why we got EAP. Now, if this was our only Tesla, there's a small chance I would have sprung for it but I doubt it.
Exactly, if you read the owners manual apparently Autosteer, TACC, NoA, Traffic Light Control are all BETA?.. But not Autopark/Summon/Smart Summon?
If you put those 7 features in front of me and asked me which are BETA and which are not, I would have scored less than 50%.
Oh but if you read the Autopilot marketing page, not a single instance of the word beta - Autopilot
Note the marketing page does not mention that Autopilot is only to be used in limited / controlled access highways only.
However the Autosteer page of the owners manual says:
"Autosteer is intended for use on controlled-access highways with a fully attentive driver."
Compare autosteer marketing page language:
Autosteer
Using advanced cameras, sensors and computing power, your Tesla will navigate tighter, more complex roads.to Owners manual:
Warning
Autosteer is intended for use on controlled-access highways with a fully attentive driver. When using Autosteer, hold the steering wheel and be mindful of road conditions and surrounding traffic. Do not use Autosteer in construction zones, or in areas where bicyclists or pedestrians may be present. Never depend on Autosteer to determine an appropriate driving path. Always be prepared to take immediate action. Failure to follow these instructions could cause damage, serious injury or death.
Oh and hilariously, look at what happens if you go through purchasing flow for a new Tesla -
0 mention of BETA when they are asking for $6k
OR scrolling down to FSD
Click -> "Feature Details"
AGAIN 0 mention of BETA when they are asking for $6k
So between marketing page, sales page and owners manual, only 1 of 3 mention the word beta..
And "Autopilot enables your car to steer, accelerate and brake automatically for other vehicles and pedestrians within its lane"
BUT also "Autosteer is intended for use on controlled-access highways with a fully attentive driver. When using Autosteer, hold the steering wheel and be mindful of road conditions and surrounding traffic. Do not use Autosteer in construction zones, or in areas where bicyclists or pedestrians may be present."
So it brakes for pedestrians OR you must not use it near pedestrians?
Basic Autopilot
Included with every Tesla, Autopilot enables your car to steer, accelerate and brake automatically for other vehicles and pedestrians within its lane. Advanced safety and convenience features are designed to assist you with the most burdensome parts of driving, alongside driver assistance features such as emergency braking, collision warning and blind-spot monitoring.Enhanced Autopilot
$6,000- Navigate on Autopilot
- Auto Lane Change
- Autopark
- Summon
- Smart Summon
Navigate on Autopilot
Automatic driving from highway on-ramp to off-ramp includes automatic lane changes, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control with complete stopping and re-engagement, Autosteer, and overtaking slow cars in your lane.0 mention of BETA when they are asking for $6k
OR scrolling down to FSD
Full Self-Driving Capability
$12,000- All functionality of Basic Autopilot and Enhanced Autopilot
- Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control
Coming Soon
- Autosteer on city streets
Click -> "Feature Details"
Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control
Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control is designed to slowdown and stop for visible traffic lights or stop signs that are detected when Traffic-Aware Cruise Control or Autosteer is engaged.AGAIN 0 mention of BETA when they are asking for $6k
So between marketing page, sales page and owners manual, only 1 of 3 mention the word beta..
And "Autopilot enables your car to steer, accelerate and brake automatically for other vehicles and pedestrians within its lane"
BUT also "Autosteer is intended for use on controlled-access highways with a fully attentive driver. When using Autosteer, hold the steering wheel and be mindful of road conditions and surrounding traffic. Do not use Autosteer in construction zones, or in areas where bicyclists or pedestrians may be present."
So it brakes for pedestrians OR you must not use it near pedestrians?
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