$12K for FSD is insane

[Spuzzz]

Like it or not, it's happening:
NHTSA Reviewing Tesla Phantom Braking After Complaint Count Spike

NHTSA Reviewing Tesla Phantom Braking After Complaint Count Spikes
I can’t believe beta drivers are complaining about California stops. For me one of the biggest reasons for me to disengage fsd beta, is its been too cautious and slow, with concerns that drivers behind me get irritated with my cars granny style driving. Making full stops at every sign will make this much worse.

I thought beta testers would have been more receptive, even appreciative for rolling stops. I don’t think I ever felt they were unsafe. (there are certainly other things that are unsafe, if not monitored)

Too bad tesla didn’t make that a beta preference so all the nervous Nellie beta testers (why would you sign up for beta or use it if you’re that nervous?) can set full stops

 

[Sporty]

Everyone is saying the same thing about 12k for FSD. Makes financial sense to subscribe to it if you really want it. I suspect he’s doing it so it’ll force more subscriptions. Subscription based companies have a higher revenue multiplier for their stock, and therefore would help their stock out more.

IMO that’s going to backfire right now. Ie I suspect the retention rate on a > 200/mount subscription is going to be low. 1. The features don’t work well enough (if at all). 2. Even if they did work, in my case I’d like the feature a few times a year I’m on a long drive.. I’m not sure I’d spend the rental fee to drive me 12 miles to & from work on a daily basis.

I also suspect the one time fee is many new time buyers. They hear the hype, already are getting “all the features” in their new electric car and don’t want to miss out.

Moving those new time buyers to rental means some number of them will back out.

I love the rental model. IMO they have an over expanded sense of what they’ve accomplished. The rental program will give them good feedback on if the features are valuable or not. And they could really use that feedback.

 

[drtimhill]

I can’t believe beta drivers are complaining about California stops. For me one of the biggest reasons for me to disengage fsd beta, is its been too cautious and slow, with concerns that drivers behind me get irritated with my cars granny style driving. Making full stops at every sign will make this much worse.

I thought beta testers would have been more receptive, even appreciative for rolling stops. I don’t think I ever felt they were unsafe. (there are certainly other things that are unsafe, if not monitored)

Too bad tesla didn’t make that a beta preference so all the nervous Nellie beta testers (why would you sign up for beta or use it if you’re that nervous?) can set full stops

I doubt if very many (or even any) have .. but there is always someone out there who wants to howl and scream just to get attention. Also remember that the NHTSA isnt as apolitical as you might think, and there are a LOT of car makers with "friends" in the organization who would like to see Tesla fail, or at the very least be slowed down as much as possible.

In reality, of course, it's actually stupid that on a clear sunny day, with no cars/pedestrians in sight even in the distance, that you should have to stop, look around (again), and only then go forward. It's a waste of time and bad for the environment. The reason it is retained, of course, is that without the rule drivers would "push the envelope" and roll when conditions were NOT safe to do so. it's like speed limits. Everyone knows they are set 5mph low because the people who set them know everyone drives 5mph over the limit anyway.

 

[dbldwn02]

I did point out the warnings about TACC are the same ones every other brand has because active cruise control has the same problems with phantom braking in every brand of car

Exaggerating much?

Mitsubishi Outlander 2018. I own it. Don't remember the last time I had a phantom braking incident.

Tesla 2017...everyday going under an overpass on my way to work.

 

[Knightshade]

Exaggerating much?

No.

I even provided multiple examples from multiple other car brands. Including several with a significantly [B}worse[/B] problem that has caused actual accidents and genuine physical recalls.

Mitsubishi Outlander 2018. I own it. Don't remember the last time I had a phantom braking incident.

And I don't remember the last time my Tesla did.

But others apparently have it all the time.

Same for ALL OTHER BRANDS with such systems.




In other news, Mitsubishi still makes cars!

But seriously though- yes, they have the SAME problem too.

in fact, Mitsubishi even had a recall for excessive braking from one of their detection systems.

Car Recall Lookup - MyCarVoice

Ensure your vehicle's safety with our Car Recall Lookup tool. Enter your VIN or model to instantly check for any manufacturer recalls or safety notices. Stay informed, drive safely.

mycarvoice.com

If the FCM-ECU software activates the brake for longer than necessary, the driver may react by applying additional braking. The resulting rapid deceleration of the vehicle can increase the risk of a rear-end collision.

Again all cars with automatic braking have problems with false positive braking to various degrees.

 

[AndreP]

If you want to actually read some of these reports rather than outdated articles in the media, following is Nissan's latest update to the NHTSA investigation into phantom braking

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2019/INRL-PE19010-79492.pdf

This includes production numbers by year, Nissan's results in filtering down to unique VINs, results of inspecting the vehicles involved, etc

Here are some fun excerpts

Among the 35 total reports listed in Table 4, there are reports of 30 unique incidents involving allegations of minor collisions. Of these incidents, Nissan was able to inspect 11 Subject Vehicles, and only four appear to have involved a potential AEB event connected to the reported incident. Seven of the incident vehicle inspections found no evidence supporting the allegation of AEB involvement in the reported crash. The remaining incident vehicles were not inspected. Among the complaints and reports listed in Table 2, there are ten reports (representing eight VINs for Subject Vehicles) involving allegations of minor injury. Nissan was able to inspect seven of these Subject Vehicles. Of these seven, only two incidents could reasonably have involved a potential AEB event.

Nissan does not believe this issue poses an unreasonable risk to safety.

During Nissan’s investigation of incidents involving false activation of the Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB) system in 2017-2018 Rogue and Rogue Sport vehicles, Nissan determined that unique roadway environments such as certain types of railroad crossings and low overhead structures might be interpreted by the system as a target in the path of travel of the vehicle. All incidents investigated by Nissan were location specific, and in each case, the unique features of the particular roadway environment were identified and used as a basis to improve the performance of the subject AEB system.

In mid-2018, Nissan released an AEB software update that would improve target recognition in these unique roadway environments without negatively impacting the performance of the original design. The software update was made available for all affected Rogue and Rogue Sport vehicles via Technical Service Bulletin (NTB18-041). Approximately 35,000 vehicles were also proactively reprogrammed under dealer actions PC637 and P8327. In January 2019, Nissan sent a notification to all Nissan dealers announcing a customer service initiative to increase awareness of the availability of the software update for customers who experienced the issue. In February 2019, letters were mailed to all registered owners to make them aware of the available software update. Roughly 19,000 of the subject vehicles have been repaired via NTB18-041

And here you can read the complaints submitted by owners and dealerships etc

2017 NISSAN ROGUE SUV FWD | NHTSA

www.nhtsa.gov

 

[Knightshade]

So Nissan doesn't think a problem they for sure know has caused multiple accidents and injuries poses an unreasonable risk to safety.

But folks here think a problem that has caused -zero- NHTSA confirmed accidents (and at best maybe one 3rd party reddit report of 1 accident)- and zero injuries- DOES pose one?


Werid.

 

[AndreP]

So Nissan doesn't think a problem they for sure know has caused multiple accidents and injuries poses an unreasonable risk to safety.

But folks here think a problem that has caused -zero- NHTSA confirmed accidents (and at best maybe one 3rd party reddit report of 1 accident)- and zero injuries- DOES pose one?


Werid.

Now we're getting into consumer vs corporation, I have no doubt that owners of the vehicles thought the incidents were posing an unreasonable safety risk when they occurred. Is it unreasonable across an entire fleet when the events were determined to be highly localized and Nissan put out improvements/fixes after identifying the specific issues?

Are the Tesla events highly localized? What does the reporting trend look like? Is Tesla working on fixing these issues in a reasonable way?

Problems happen, what matters most afterwards is the response and actions taken. Lets see how this unfolds.

 

[Knightshade]

Now we're getting into consumer vs corporation, I have no doubt that owners of the vehicles thought the incidents were posing an unreasonable safety risk when they occurred. Is it unreasonable across an entire fleet when the events were determined to be highly localized and Nissan put out improvements/fixes after identifying the specific issues?

Are the Tesla events highly localized? What does the reporting trend look like? Is Tesla working on fixing these issues in a reasonable way?

Problems happen, what matters most afterwards is the response and actions taken. Lets see how this unfolds.

Tesla fixed the cause of the "surge" within hours.

And even at the height of this "surge" the # of complaints, on a much larger fleet, was much lower than Nissans rate of complaints, and infinitely lower in terms of number of reported accidents.


Which is why this whole discussion is pretty strange.

 

[drtimhill]

Mitsubishi Outlander 2018. I own it. Don't remember the last time I had a phantom braking incident.

Has it ever done a real emergency brake operation (i.e. braked in an actual emergency)?

 

[AndreP]

Tesla fixed the cause of the "surge" within hours.

And even at the height of this "surge" the # of complaints, on a much larger fleet, was much lower than Nissans rate of complaints, and infinitely lower in terms of number of reported accidents.


Which is why this whole discussion is pretty strange.

I'm not sure exactly where those numbers are coming from, but according to the NHTSA website

2017 Nissan Rogue SUV FWD, dating all the way back to 2017 until now, 40 complaints

2021 Tesla Model Y 5-seat, starting a year ago, 120 complaints

But I'm sure there's some nuance or other details here that I'm missing.


The 2021 Tesla Model Y 5-seat has over 50 FCW complaints in the first week of February alone, without digging into each one and checking the date of the incident or filtering down to unique VINs etc

 

[Knightshade]

I'm not sure exactly where those numbers are coming from, but according to the NHTSA website

2017 Nissan Rogue SUV FWD, dating all the way back to 2017 until now, 40 complaints
View attachment 765615
2021 Tesla Model Y 5-seat, starting a year ago, 120 complaints
View attachment 765616
But I'm sure there's some nuance or other details here that I'm missing.


The 2021 Tesla Model Y 5-seat has over 50 FCW complaints in the first week of February alone, without digging into each one and checking the date of the incident or filtering down to unique VINs etc

5NHTSA looking at braking issue in 500,000 Nissan Rogues | Car News | Auto123

The NHTSA is inquiring after receiving reports of a problem with the emergency braking system of the Nissan Rogue. Auto123 has the details.

www.auto123.com

The NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) in the United States is opening an inquiry after receiving reports regarding the emergency automatic braking system of the Nissan Rogue. The agency has received some 840 complaints from owners of this popular model

 

[AndreP]

We've seen the media articles, I don't know where those official numbers exist. Maybe a bunch of them were duplicates that were deleted? The same might happen for a number of these Tesla reports, who knows.

I don't feel particularly inclined to worry about it, there are people who are paid to dig into all this stuff and we can watch how it unfolds here. But people should be reporting the issues if they feel it poses a safety risk, and the NHTSA can do their work to protect us as consumers.


2022 Model Y 5-seat has 35 FCW complaints this year.

2022 TESLA MODEL Y 5-SEAT SUV RWD | NHTSA

www.nhtsa.gov

2022 Model 3 4 DR RWD has 47 FCW complaints this year.

2022 TESLA MODEL 3 4 DR RWD | NHTSA

www.nhtsa.gov

If you add up the 2021 and 2022 Model 3 + Model Y, it's probably 200-300 FCW complaints submitted in the first five weeks of 2022.

 

[dbldwn02]

Has it ever done a real emergency brake operation (i.e. braked in an actual emergency)?

Not yet. It has about 25k miles on it.

Haven't had any false braking or close calls that I can remember. Wife loves her TACC...she hates the Tesla TACC and won't use autopilot. She drives the Tesla about 30% of the time.

There was a recall for the Mitsubishi FCW when I first bought it. They did a software update.

 

[dbldwn02]

Again all cars with automatic braking have problems with false positive braking to various degrees.

Tesla is not the worst but still way worse than Mitsubishi. I have an apples to apples comparison on my daily drive.

And how does a car marker that barely makes any US cars have better TACC than Tesla?

But hey, one day it'll Tesla Taxi and make me some $$$$! Just hope the backseat passengers don't

 

[Knightshade]

Tesla is not the worst but still way worse than Mitsubishi. I have an apples to apples comparison on my daily drive.

Then they're worse for that specific drive. Not in general.

When CR tested a slew of ADAS systems for example, under capabilities and performance, they rated Tesla 9/10 (the only one to score that high).

Mitsubishi is not tested- but from a quick read their current system is MiPilot- which is basically a copy of Nissans ProPilot. Which scored a 5/10 in CR testing.

And how does a car marker that barely makes any US cars have better TACC than Tesla?

This is called assuming facts not in evidence.

 

[2101Guy]

on a separate note, whatever happened to that mysterious Plaid fire last year in Pennsylvania I think? It got a LOT of press/coverage/pics, then the whole story just disappeared. Almost as if there was a coverup by a large corporation....

I checked the Mitsu and Nissan forums like this one, and nary a mention of phantom braking type events. Not even CLOSE to the number of posts/threads on this forum. Makes one wonder if there have been phantom braking accidents, but like the Plaid fire topic...

 

[JustJohn]

Tesla fixed the cause of the "surge" within hours.

And even at the height of this "surge" the # of complaints, on a much larger fleet, was much lower than Nissans rate of complaints, and infinitely lower in terms of number of reported accidents.


Which is why this whole discussion is pretty strange.

Signs you might be in a cult:
1. The leader is the ultimate authority
2. The group suppresses skepticism
3. The group delegitimizes dissenting members
4. The group is paranoid about the outside world
5. The leader is above the law
6. The group is elitist
7. Members are oblivious to being shamelessly trolled by people who have no interest in joining.

Several things on the list can be true simultaneously.

 

[Knightshade]

on a separate note, whatever happened to that mysterious Plaid fire last year in Pennsylvania I think? It got a LOT of press/coverage/pics, then the whole story just disappeared. Almost as if there was a coverup by a large corporation....

Or the accident turned out to be a fraud in the first place, as many suggested at the time.

Which seems more likely than the tinfoil hat required to think it was covered up.

Especially since days later it came out the owner of the car that "caught on fire" was the head of an investment firm that had a massive put position in Tesla stock.



Remember the accident in Texas where initial reports were EVERYWHERE saying the cops were SURE nobody was behind the wheel?

Months later- turned out a drunk idiot was behind the wheel. But reporting on that was almost nothing.

I checked the Mitsu and Nissan forums like this one, and nary a mention of phantom braking type events

Weird, since I not only directly linked some previously, I also linked to the stories citing over 800 NHTSA complaints for Nissan including, unlike with Tesla, an actual active and open NHTSA investigation into the problem.

 

[Knightshade]

4. The group is paranoid about the outside world

What, like this guy?

on a separate note, whatever happened to that mysterious Plaid fire last year in Pennsylvania I think? It got a LOT of press/coverage/pics, then the whole story just disappeared. Almost as if there was a coverup by a large corporation....