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I'm sure @wk057 could or has this information but his vehicles might be AP1 right now. I mean, why the hell even mess with AP2 in its current state. I don't think Jason has improved AP1 for his personal vehicles and AP2 would be yeoman's work to get going at this point. Might as well let Tesla continue the heavy lifting. We know Jason can add AP1 to a vehicle but concluded it was a PITA. Imagine a spineectomy (HW2)?

Admittedly jumping in this thread blind, but I'll make a few notes based on the @highlight I got here.

The non-AP to AP1 retrofit I did was a pain for sure. I've looked into what it would take to do AP1 to AP2... and realistically, on a Model S, it wouldn't be nearly as bad from a hardware perspective as non-AP to AP1, assuming I had all of the components. There are some other challenges, though, since the AP2 module itself is a different beast compared to AP1. For example, I don't know if an AP2 module from a salvage vehicle could be utilized in such a retrofit. The biggest issue with an AP1 to AP2 retrofit becomes the massive amount of wiring changes required. The AP2 module sits on the ethernet bus, and the newer cars have an updated MCU. So a new MCU is needed, plus additional wiring to get the AP2 module on the ethernet bus, plus wiring for additional cameras, CAN connections, power, etc. The wiring would be the biggest hassle, assuming I could get the software to cooperate.

As for improvements to AP1... I've actually made some minor improvements.

I've made some hardware that sits in front of the AP module's CAN and the rest of the car and allows me to manipulate almost every aspect of the system. Aside from the nonsense restrictions, nags, and other things Tesla has added that take away from the quality of the system, one of my biggest issues with AP is the fact that it sees in two dimensions and thus gets super confused by lane markings in the distance when rounding a hill, causing the car to jump to one side or the other depending on perspective. I've been working on filtering these movements, mostly on a route I take frequently, as well as anticipating them in software by reading data from the car's sensors as well as logging in a small database points where the car always needs a correction, what that correction ends up being, and applying that correction based on GPS and other factors.

I've also tinkered with adding some features to the system, like actually adapting to the speed limit with an offset, as well as fully automatic highway passing. I've implemented the latter with the system warning me that it's about to initiate a lane change with a series of quick beeps so that I can check for any vehicles approaching too quickly for the ultrasonics to detect, then if I don't intervene, it will do the lane change on its own. Basically if there is an open lane to the left with a dashed line there, and it's been there for more than a mile (ie, not an on or off-ramp), and the car in front of me is going slower than my set speed, and there are no vehicles ahead in the lane to the left, or at least none going slower than the car ahead now, it will attempt an automatic lane change. It will get back over to the right after the lane is clear, also. My box tracks where the cars I'm passing should be, also, to make sure I've passed them sufficiently (camera until they leave view, and ultrasonics after that). I used it pretty successfully on my last long trip.

Another major one I've played around with implementing is a full follow-the-leader type of mode, where the car will follow a lead car completely and indefinitely through all turns, lane changes, etc, assuming it's able. Tesla's follow mode tends to break off in a full turn in either direction, but I've been able to use both map data and sensor data to extrapolate where the lead car is in a turn, and continue that turn while keeping it in view of one or more sensors... in most cases anyway. It's not perfect, and requires tricking a lot of systems to work. But it does work pretty decently for something I whipped up in less than a day. Like, if there is a lead car heading towards my house in my development (which has no lane markings) I can follow them pretty accurately, around full turns and all, right into my driveway.

I've got quite a few other things I've tweaked and other features I've been working on as well... and I've been debating with myself whether or not this is something that would be sane to market to Tesla owners. Ultimately, one of my personal goals is to be able to do hands free from my garage to some frequent local destinations... while obviously monitoring everything. Suffice it to say it's an ongoing project, but I believe I've improved my personal autopilot experience significantly beyond what Tesla's system provides.

Unfortunately, Tesla makes major changes to their CAN communications frequently, so I've had to kind of lock my car on a specific version so I don't have to constantly update things to account for their changes.

As for AP2... I've no interest in trying anything with it until it does at least some things AP1 can't. As of recently I tested out an AP2 car on newer firmware... and AP1 is still better, even out of the box without my modifications.
 
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@wk057 -- Hot damn. That's amazing. Also one thing AP2 does better right now is it will hold a lane pretty well on unmarked roads (it sees the curb and, if present, the asphalt fold in the center of the road as far as I can tell). Otherwise its a loss -- as I said, it will take a lot of work to get it to AP1 parity it sounds like your AP1.1 is better than AP2 will be for the rest of 2017...
 
@wk057 -- Hot damn. That's amazing. Also one thing AP2 does better right now is it will hold a lane pretty well on unmarked roads (it sees the curb and, if present, the asphalt fold in the center of the road as far as I can tell). Otherwise its a loss -- as I said, it will take a lot of work to get it to AP1 parity it sounds like your AP1.1 is better than AP2 will be for the rest of 2017...

I did try AP2 following a car (another Tesla, actually) into my development with no lane markings... and it didn't seem to do any better than AP1, and still disengaged once the leader was out of range (I set my speed to lower than theirs on purpose). There is an obvious center crease, as well as an obvious edge to the road (black asphalt vs grass). The AP1 system actually detects the road edge pretty well, it just doesn't utilize it (normally) and I've been able to use that data for my modified setup with some smoothing. AP2 didn't seem to do the same, or at least didn't utilize it any differently than AP1 (which doesn't).
 
I did try AP2 following a car (another Tesla, actually) into my development with no lane markings... and it didn't seem to do any better than AP1, and still disengaged once the leader was out of range (I set my speed to lower than theirs on purpose). There is an obvious center crease, as well as an obvious edge to the road (black asphalt vs grass). The AP1 system actually detects the road edge pretty well, it just doesn't utilize it (normally) and I've been able to use that data for my modified setup with some smoothing. AP2 didn't seem to do the same, or at least didn't utilize it any differently than AP1 (which doesn't).

Interesting. Long story short, my anecdotal experience is AP2 is quite good around me on unmarked roads (with a curb). I did test a couple earlier builds on rural roads at 55mph without a curb and it was very poor (unnerving) so perhaps my unmarked roads requires some clarification.

When does AP1 use the road edge information other than your modified one? Why do you think Tesla isn't utilizing that?
 
Interesting. Long story short, my anecdotal experience is AP2 is quite good around me on unmarked roads (with a curb). I did test a couple earlier builds on rural roads at 55mph without a curb and it was very poor (unnerving) so perhaps my unmarked roads requires some clarification.

When does AP1 use the road edge information other than your modified one? Why do you think Tesla isn't utilizing that?

Out of the box, it appears to only use it when in follow mode, or when a line disappears. It won't let you engage based on just road edges. My guess is that they won't use it more because It seems the data is pretty noisy... on my road the raw accuracy seems to be maybe +/- 2 feet or so... which probably isn't good enough for many use cases. Basic filtering and decimation seems to clean the data up pretty nicely, though.
 
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As for AP2... I've no interest in trying anything with it until it does at least some things AP1 can't. As of recently I tested out an AP2 car on newer firmware... and AP1 is still better, even out of the box without my modifications.

Wouldn't an AP2 car be a better car to modify from? I can understand modifying an AP1 car since the access and knowledge you have of it. I can also totally understand avoiding AP2 until it does significantly more than AP1. That is exactly what I'm doing (or bailing all together to some other manufacture).

But, from a car hacking perspective an AP2 car has a ton of awesome stuff. The computer, the cameras, etc. Plus to me it seems like the biggest hurdle in getting more features is regulatory. Tesla can certainly improve AP2, but there is only so much they can add before regulatory requirements get in the way.

For me personally I'm going the R/C hacking route with a Jetson TX2. That's all I can afford. :)
 
@wk057 Your services would likely be in great demand should you find a way to offer them. Your pack upgrades are very intriguing but I've maxed out my investment for now. Software, though, clearly needs help. I'm not sure what business model but your stated ideas/implementation of improvements and using what AP1 already does should intrigue anyone who has an AP1 (or AP2).
 
@verygreen is there any information you can deduce regarding what feature sets might be implemented next based on the code you've reviewed?

Very curious to see if the next step is activating image processing on the repeater cameras for better blindspot monitoring for all EAP vehicles.
Very little to nothing, actually. Surprsingly we can learn more about upcoming hardware, though.
 
Admittedly jumping in this thread blind, but I'll make a few notes based on the @highlight I got here.

The non-AP to AP1 retrofit I did was a pain for sure. I've looked into what it would take to do AP1 to AP2... and realistically, on a Model S, it wouldn't be nearly as bad from a hardware perspective as non-AP to AP1, assuming I had all of the components. There are some other challenges, though, since the AP2 module itself is a different beast compared to AP1. For example, I don't know if an AP2 module from a salvage vehicle could be utilized in such a retrofit. The biggest issue with an AP1 to AP2 retrofit becomes the massive amount of wiring changes required. The AP2 module sits on the ethernet bus, and the newer cars have an updated MCU. So a new MCU is needed, plus additional wiring to get the AP2 module on the ethernet bus, plus wiring for additional cameras, CAN connections, power, etc. The wiring would be the biggest hassle, assuming I could get the software to cooperate.

As for improvements to AP1... I've actually made some minor improvements.

I've made some hardware that sits in front of the AP module's CAN and the rest of the car and allows me to manipulate almost every aspect of the system. Aside from the nonsense restrictions, nags, and other things Tesla has added that take away from the quality of the system, one of my biggest issues with AP is the fact that it sees in two dimensions and thus gets super confused by lane markings in the distance when rounding a hill, causing the car to jump to one side or the other depending on perspective. I've been working on filtering these movements, mostly on a route I take frequently, as well as anticipating them in software by reading data from the car's sensors as well as logging in a small database points where the car always needs a correction, what that correction ends up being, and applying that correction based on GPS and other factors.

I've also tinkered with adding some features to the system, like actually adapting to the speed limit with an offset, as well as fully automatic highway passing. I've implemented the latter with the system warning me that it's about to initiate a lane change with a series of quick beeps so that I can check for any vehicles approaching too quickly for the ultrasonics to detect, then if I don't intervene, it will do the lane change on its own. Basically if there is an open lane to the left with a dashed line there, and it's been there for more than a mile (ie, not an on or off-ramp), and the car in front of me is going slower than my set speed, and there are no vehicles ahead in the lane to the left, or at least none going slower than the car ahead now, it will attempt an automatic lane change. It will get back over to the right after the lane is clear, also. My box tracks where the cars I'm passing should be, also, to make sure I've passed them sufficiently (camera until they leave view, and ultrasonics after that). I used it pretty successfully on my last long trip.

Another major one I've played around with implementing is a full follow-the-leader type of mode, where the car will follow a lead car completely and indefinitely through all turns, lane changes, etc, assuming it's able. Tesla's follow mode tends to break off in a full turn in either direction, but I've been able to use both map data and sensor data to extrapolate where the lead car is in a turn, and continue that turn while keeping it in view of one or more sensors... in most cases anyway. It's not perfect, and requires tricking a lot of systems to work. But it does work pretty decently for something I whipped up in less than a day. Like, if there is a lead car heading towards my house in my development (which has no lane markings) I can follow them pretty accurately, around full turns and all, right into my driveway.

I've got quite a few other things I've tweaked and other features I've been working on as well... and I've been debating with myself whether or not this is something that would be sane to market to Tesla owners. Ultimately, one of my personal goals is to be able to do hands free from my garage to some frequent local destinations... while obviously monitoring everything. Suffice it to say it's an ongoing project, but I believe I've improved my personal autopilot experience significantly beyond what Tesla's system provides.

Unfortunately, Tesla makes major changes to their CAN communications frequently, so I've had to kind of lock my car on a specific version so I don't have to constantly update things to account for their changes.

As for AP2... I've no interest in trying anything with it until it does at least some things AP1 can't. As of recently I tested out an AP2 car on newer firmware... and AP1 is still better, even out of the box without my modifications.

Is it confirmed that AP2.0 cars have a new MCU? That's the first I've heard of it and have read other threads where I believe we concluded the MCU has not been updated.
 
Is it confirmed that AP2.0 cars have a new MCU? That's the first I've heard of it and have read other threads where I believe we concluded the MCU has not been updated.
I bet it's mosty the same, the changes are very minor - you know, to take gpio input from ape to do things to the backup camera for example. Also gateway needs to be aware that ape is there and to contol the power of it and such.
I have AP1 cid in addition to AP2 car and can compare to a degree.
 
@wk057 curious about the AP1 forward facing camera - I had believed that it had limited depth of field, and this is one reason why Tesla fitted 3 cameras to AP2. You seem to suggest otherwise?

loving the implementation of registering regular AP discoonects using gps and mitigating the localised issue subsequently.
Again I had really believed this is what Tesla were doing with their "learning" fleet but have never seen any evidence of to date.

Having transitioned from AP 1.0 to AP2.0 (17.24.28) I am quite shocked at how inferior AP2.0 still is. I had a lot of sympathy with early AP2.0 adopters not getting the promised functionality, but thought that by now the systems should be near enough at parity.

AP2.0 is not at parity. By a long way.
as worryingly as anything is the inconsistency of how it "sees" other cars, jumping around the IC image like a game of whack-a-mole and of course when it doesn't "see" cars which is gravely concerning. Basically I now barely use AP2.0, where I would use AP1.0 most all the time.

It suggests to me that Tesla's AP team have lost focus, possibly by growing in size too fast.
I hope this new chap can make better progress.

( I could also grumble about no rain sensitive wipers, no auto headlight dip; horrid "sparkly" headlight view but that's also been well covered elsewhere)

The use of GPS (or lack of ) remains the craziest disappointment with Tesla, there is just so many neat geofenced tricks you could do with minimal code development. The app too is just so disappointingly underdeveloped even for basic stuff like for a parked car the alarm has gone off, the vehicle is moving, an illegal attempt to unlock has been detected, one of your tires has low pressure, a pretty girl just walked past.

ok maybe scratch the last one - but well the AP2.0 cameras must have some purpose ;)
 
Is it confirmed that AP2.0 cars have a new MCU? That's the first I've heard of it and have read other threads where I believe we concluded the MCU has not been updated.
The MCU part number in the Parts Manual as of today is 1045006-00-C.

The part no. did not change in fall '16 (unlike the cameras, ap2ecu).

I tried to look for the earliest implementation of the "C"-revision, and I found one on eBay with prod. date 10/4/2016 - see pics below. (Note that one of the stickers says "ModelX" and the other "Model S". Both cars have the same MCU-part no., so it shouldn't matter.)

PS: I might be dreaming, but I think I read somewhere that the "C"-revision was introduced around the same time as facelift S. Which, interestingly, would correspond to the introduction of the new backup camera on facelift S...

C-rev.jpg
 
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@croman, @wk057 Honestly, you should sell it back to Tesla for a major profit so, everyone can get it. Then you should offer your services for a huge fee, because the seem incapable of getting to the level that you have with level 1 hardware. Imagine, what you could pull off with the raw data feeds and the bare silicon.... :eek:

I'm guessing your running a raspberry pi or something similar firing off signals into the can bus from sniffing the can bus singals?

And yes, you should totally package this thing up and sell it, though honestly I think Tesla should buy it first. ;)
 
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Is it confirmed that AP2.0 cars have a new MCU? That's the first I've heard of it and have read other threads where I believe we concluded the MCU has not been updated.

I bet it's mosty the same, the changes are very minor - you know, to take gpio input from ape to do things to the backup camera for example. Also gateway needs to be aware that ape is there and to contol the power of it and such.
I have AP1 cid in addition to AP2 car and can compare to a degree.

The MCU part number in the Parts Manual as of today is 1045006-00-C.

The part no. did not change in fall '16 (unlike the cameras, ap2ecu).

I tried to look for the earliest implementation of the "C"-revision, and I found one on eBay with prod. date 10/4/2016 - see pics below. (Note that one of the stickers says "ModelX" and the other "Model S". Both cars have the same MCU-part no., so it shouldn't matter.)

PS: I might be dreaming, but I think I read somewhere that the "C"-revision was introduced around the same time as facelift S. Which, interestingly, would correspond to the introduction of the new backup camera on facelift S...

There's a bit of ambiguity on the MCU changes... let me clear it up. The MCU's internal design and connector layout was in fact changed when the X was released, and this change was then later passed down to the refresh S. I wouldn't call it an upgraded MCU, just modified and improved a bit. So, the X has had the newer MCU from day one, as have the refreshed S's. No pre-refresh S has it, nor can use it without some wiring changes. However, the newer MCU is needed for AP2.0, and the majority of AP1 cars will have the older MCU (pre-refresh S's).

@croman, @wk057 Honestly, you should sell it back to Tesla for a major profit so, everyone can get it. Then you should offer your services for a huge fee, because the seem incapable of getting to the level that you have with level 1 hardware. Imagine, what you could pull off with the raw data feeds and the bare silicon.... :eek:

I'm guessing your running a raspberry pi or something similar firing off signals into the can bus from sniffing the can bus singals?

And yes, you should totally package this thing up and sell it, though honestly I think Tesla should buy it first. ;)

Well, as has been mentioned by others in the past, I actually don't think Tesla has much interest in implementing such features. They seem to be doing the minimum needed to keep people on board without stirring up too much trouble... which is fine I guess, as long as people keep buying cars and pre-paying for features that will never happen. *shrugs*

I'm actually using a custom made board with a 32-bit microcontroller for this, as well as a Pi for some higher level stuff. Probably will replace the Pi with something more robust soon, though, as it seems to be the weakest link as far as stability goes considering it's a very unshielded $35 general purpose mini computer. It works rather well for what it is, though, and only has had issues a couple of times (random lockup)... which seem to be common to a Pi under decent load for an extended period.
 
Well, as has been mentioned by others in the past, I actually don't think Tesla has much interest in implementing such features. They seem to be doing the minimum needed to keep people on board without stirring up too much trouble... which is fine I guess, as long as people keep buying cars and pre-paying for features that will never happen. *shrugs*

Yah, the more I see and learn the more my eyes open, this is really heart breaking to see... oh well foul me once...
 
Just found this thread today (I'm usually on the investor threads). I've got a Model S with AP1. Lots of interesting info here about AP2.0 still falling short of AP1. Musk has recently reiterated the plan for FSD coast to coast in December of this year, presumably with AP2.0. Are the opinions here that the probability of this happening so soon is very low? Or, is AP2 now starting to improve pretty quickly to where this seems pretty feasible? Thanks for any informed opinions on this!
 
Just found this thread today (I'm usually on the investor threads). I've got a Model S with AP1. Lots of interesting info here about AP2.0 still falling short of AP1. Musk has recently reiterated the plan for FSD coast to coast in December of this year, presumably with AP2.0. Are the opinions here that the probability of this happening so soon is very low? Or, is AP2 now starting to improve pretty quickly to where this seems pretty feasible? Thanks for any informed opinions on this!

Honestly I think the progress for self-driving is inherently nonlinear. There's a lot less visible progress when training these systems, until it reaches a point where it's pretty good and that unlocks an exponential number of easy-to-implement high level software features once you can trust the camera is telling you the truth.
 
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Just found this thread today (I'm usually on the investor threads). I've got a Model S with AP1. Lots of interesting info here about AP2.0 still falling short of AP1. Musk has recently reiterated the plan for FSD coast to coast in December of this year, presumably with AP2.0. Are the opinions here that the probability of this happening so soon is very low? Or, is AP2 now starting to improve pretty quickly to where this seems pretty feasible? Thanks for any informed opinions on this!

Who knows! It is possible that Tesla are building FSD as a completely different product to EAP, and is developing it seperately in parallel. It is equally possible that what we see with EAP now is pretty much all there is.