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Autopilot lane keeping still not available over 6 months after delivery

jeffro01

Active Member
Jan 30, 2013
2,676
1,926
Teller County CO
If you keep waiting for the next feature enhancement, you'll never buy the car. At some point you just have to decide to pull the trigger and understand that you're not going to have the latest and greatest for very long. Enjoy it for what it is, or don't buy it. You can't stop progress by insisting on progress only happening once per year.

Yep you are exactly right, no disputing that. The Tesla model is such a departure from the traditional automotive sales model that I simply haven't adjusted to it's reality yet. It's funny you bring that up as that's the same argument I use against anyone complaining about the recent purchase of a now obsolete technology based device... :)

Jeff
 

dsm363

Roadster + Sig Model S
May 17, 2009
18,278
151
Nevada
Sorry, but I'm calling shenanigans on that. In the Q1 conf. call (March 19 I think?), Elon said "Autopilot will be released in 3 months".

It's been > 3 months now.

Here is my grand prediction -

Major firmware update announcement next week, semi autopilot enabled, firmware rolls out over next 4 weeks.
Full autpilot, more like October/Decemberish.

You heard it here first people!

Elon should probably be less specific but this isn't the first time Tesla has given a date for something and missed the self imposed deadline. Would people be happier with 'it will come out at some point in the future' instead? They would demand specifics. Tesla should be more vague, I agree.
 

Uncle Paul

Well-Known Member
Nov 1, 2013
6,152
6,651
Canyon Lake,CA
Tesla misses hoped for (and sometimes stated) deadlines all the time. Most everybody in the tech industry does. Sometimes planned featured just do not work out at planned.

As far as suing Tesla, believe you killed your chances when you posted the real reason for you upgrading your existing car for a newer model was your individual tax situation.

You hoped to get additional goodies, but having your hopes unfulfilled is shaky ground for a class action suit.

Sounds like you have become fixated on this future feature (which there is still not legal guarantee that it will ever be released) and painted yourself into a corner.

Hope you can put it aside, and rejoice in the satisfaction that you are able to drive one of the most fantastic cars ever produced. Anguishing about a single unfulfilled hope should not cause you so much despair. Tesla is trying hard to produce the finest car they can. Some times they come up short of your expectations.
 

kuttakamina

Member
Aug 23, 2014
709
2
DC
Drop the sue talk, never gonna fly. But there has to be some importance of credibility, and future laugh tests about a yapping CEO with outlandish promises.
 

jerry33

(S85-3/2/13 traded in) X LR: F2611##-3/27/20
Mar 8, 2012
19,565
21,936
Texas
Drop the sue talk, never gonna fly. But there has to be some importance of credibility, and future laugh tests about a yapping CEO with outlandish promises.

"Outlandish" implies they never happen. Tesla has actually been pretty good about making the things they announced happen. They typically take longer than they originally projected, sometimes a lot longer, but that's not outlandish by any stretch of the imagination.
 

sorka

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2015
7,677
5,693
Merced, CA
Tesla misses hoped for (and sometimes stated) deadlines all the time. Most everybody in the tech industry does. Sometimes planned featured just do not work out at planned.

As far as suing Tesla, believe you killed your chances when you posted the real reason for you upgrading your existing car for a newer model was your individual tax situation.

You hoped to get additional goodies, but having your hopes unfulfilled is shaky ground for a class action suit.

Sounds like you have become fixated on this future feature (which there is still not legal guarantee that it will ever be released) and painted yourself into a corner.

Hope you can put it aside, and rejoice in the satisfaction that you are able to drive one of the most fantastic cars ever produced. Anguishing about a single unfulfilled hope should not cause you so much despair. Tesla is trying hard to produce the finest car they can. Some times they come up short of your expectations.

He didn't say that was the only reason. There were dozens of reasons I bought mine plus dozens of reasons I almost didn't. Everything taken as a whole. If there was a class action filed, it won't be based on one persons reasons or any persons reasons. It will be based on whether or not the company promised something in a specified amount of time and failed to deliver. If one person goes and sues Tesla over some failed promise, they won't file a class action themselves. They'll find a lawyer who's willing to take the case and if that lawyer smells blood and realizes there are many more people likely in the same situation, they'll start hunting other litigants in hopes of starting a class which can mean a lot more money for that firm.

That said, I've been taken for a ride a few times and now I adjust my expectations but I didn't have the same reference prior to buying despite the fact that I'd done tons of research.
 

wk057

Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,654
11,363
Hickory, NC, USA
I'll reiterate that legal action is a last resort and is definitely NOT the preferred path here, nor is it being pursued at this time, nor do I intend to pursue legal action right now. I am not, however, dismissing legal action as a potential avenue for resolution.

I fully expect Tesla to come up with some gesture of good faith towards those of us who have been more than patient on the matter that will quell the need for any legal action for at least some time.

Like I said... an official progress update would be nice. A statement that warranty on autopilot hardware wouldn't start counting down until after 7.x was released would be more than enough for me, personally. Offer to refund/disable autopilot cost until it is available (as mentioned above). Something. Anything that proves that us early buyers weren't just victims of a marketing ploy and I would be happy. I'm sure most others would as well.

I feel like this needs reiterating as apparently some people are jumping to conclusions.

- - - Updated - - -

I understand your disappointment, but really?

You bought a product based upon a vague promise of something that will occur at some point in the future. By your own admission, now in the record, you placed an "arbitrary" deadline for said feature that would be acceptable to you and you alone. The reason you have stated for upgrading to the new vehicle was so that you could obtain this new feature - again, with no real deadline promised by Tesla other than "in future software updates" - in time for a specific drive you were planning on making. The necessity of this feature by your arbitrary deadline, according to you, is so you don't have to do all of the driving yourself.

Good luck finding a judge anywhere in the country who would find any sympathy for you. You painted yourself into a corner all on your own, and by your own admission. Anyone can sue anyone in this country for almost anything, but that doesn't mean you have a valid complaint or cause of action. You certainly will not be able to show any damages due to Tesla's not delivering the feature by your arbitrary deadline. Your trade-in and upgrade costs are not damages, because those did not arise directly from the non-delivery of the software and you also received much more than the single software update in the bargain. Your damages would be defined as what you incurred as a result of Tesla not delivering said software, and even then, Tesla never promised that you would receive it by a certain date. Your damages would be simply that you had to hold the steering wheel during your journey. What value do you think any court of law will put on that?

Unfortunately, anything that a salesperson or any Tesla employee said to you that wasn't in writing isn't really admissible and would constitute hearsay.

Ultimately, after spending tens of thousands of dollars to sue Tesla, this will be the end result...

I think you fail to realize what I meant by arbitrary deadline. This is the time frame I set for myself for how long I'd be willing to put up with Tesla not delivering on their promises. This is not the time frame they would legally have to do so, which they tied themselves to less. My arbitrary deadline was about a 1/4rd of the way through my summer trips and is a courtesy on my part. This is far from "painting myself into a corner."

Also, this is not the only thing that would factor into such a lawsuit. Initial claims of higher range and higher horsepower and then failing to deliver and changing specs after ordering would certainly factor into a larger legal case.


Drop the sue talk, never gonna fly. But there has to be some importance of credibility, and future laugh tests about a yapping CEO with outlandish promises.


Credibility is pretty much shot as far as any claims of anything upcoming as far as I'm concerned if they can't do anything at all about this situation.

- - - Updated - - -

To those of you saying the car is great as it is, etc etc. Sure, it is a great car. I like the car, don't get me wrong. If I didn't like it I wouldn't be driving it.

That doesn't give Tesla a pass on everything they've come up short on, however. They've over-promised and under-delivered on at least three specific items with regard to the P85D for early buyers.

The autopilot one just happens to be the one most important to me and was a huge factor in my decision to purchase the P85D. If it were just faster and AWD I would not have spent the money to trade up, regardless of tax situation or any other factors. So let's get that out there right now.

My decision to trust Tesla to deliver the car spec'd as promised is apparently where I went wrong here and is my fault according to some here. lol.
 

Todd Burch

Voltage makes me tingle.
Nov 3, 2009
7,851
28,923
Smithfield, VA
I see both sides to the arguments here. Aside from the legal thing which is an entirely different animal:

1. Tesla should learn a lesson here to be more careful about what they say publicly.
2. Assuming the steering comes within about a month (as I personally expect), I think it would be fair for Tesla to extend the warranty on the actual auto-steering-related systems to start based on the date it was released to customers. I tend to think they would be ok doing that as well.
 

wk057

Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,654
11,363
Hickory, NC, USA
I see both sides to the arguments here. Aside from the legal thing which is an entirely different animal:

1. Tesla should learn a lesson here to be more careful about what they say publicly.
2. Assuming the steering comes within about a month (as I personally expect), I think it would be fair for Tesla to extend the warranty on the actual auto-steering-related systems to start based on the date it was released to customers. I tend to think they would be ok doing that as well.

Like I said, the legal aspect is a last resort. If come the end of the summer or so and still no indication that autopilot is going to be released and nothing else on the subject from Tesla... then it may be the only avenue to further pursue.

I'm doubting this will happen. I still have some faith that they're actually going to deliver the functionality sometime this summer... but we'll see.
 

Todd Burch

Voltage makes me tingle.
Nov 3, 2009
7,851
28,923
Smithfield, VA
Like I said, the legal aspect is a last resort. If come the end of the summer or so and still no indication that autopilot is going to be released and nothing else on the subject from Tesla... then it may be the only avenue to further pursue.

I'm doubting this will happen. I still have some faith that they're actually going to deliver the functionality sometime this summer... but we'll see.

Wk057, you seem like a reasonable person and have contributed a lot of good info to this site, particularly related to the battery pack. Although Tesla does make missteps like this, they always seem to be fair and reasonable in making up for it. I have a feeling they will in this case.
 

wk057

Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,654
11,363
Hickory, NC, USA
Wk057, you seem like a reasonable person and have contributed a lot of good info to this site, particularly related to the battery pack. Although Tesla does make missteps like this, they always seem to be fair and reasonable in making up for it. I have a feeling they will in this case.

Exactly. Thanks.

I think people are reading too much into the mention of legal action. It's a last resort and a right I'm not giving up, not something I'm actively pursuing.
 

fiksegts

Active Member
Jan 6, 2013
1,281
1,185
Miami
I'm disappointed auto steering isn't available by now as well, my feeling is if we're at 6 months plus without it since delivery, and 10 months since annoucement, there are some major issues, and the cars will might have to go in for additional hardware..

the blindspot monitoring is useless, 1/2 the time there is a car right in my blind spot and the system isn't detecting the car, if auto steer is heavily dependent on these sensors, I think there is a real concern...
 

Todd Burch

Voltage makes me tingle.
Nov 3, 2009
7,851
28,923
Smithfield, VA
I'm disappointed auto steering isn't available by now as well, my feeling is if we're at 6 months plus without it since delivery, and 10 months since annoucement, there are some major issues, and the cars will might have to go in for additional hardware..

the blindspot monitoring is useless, 1/2 the time there is a car right in my blind spot and the system isn't detecting the car, if auto steer is heavily dependent on these sensors, I think there is a real concern...

Huh. I've seen that reported several times, but I have no issues with blind spot monitoring on my car. I see arcs when there are supposed to be arcs, and don't see them when there aren't. One thing I've noticed is that the S shows the arcs not when a car is next to you, but when it's truly in your blind spot. At least, that's the behavior I get.
 

TexasEV

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2013
7,642
8,470
Austin, TX
Yep you are exactly right, no disputing that. The Tesla model is such a departure from the traditional automotive sales model that I simply haven't adjusted to it's reality yet. It's funny you bring that up as that's the same argument I use against anyone complaining about the recent purchase of a now obsolete technology based device... :)

Jeff
Right, I think much of the differences of opinion in this forum on this and other topics comes from some owners are tech people and some are car people. There is a wide gulf between those who never cared much about cars and fell in love with Tesla because of the tech aspect, and others for whom this is their latest expensive car.
 

SW2Fiddler

We Are Cognitive Dissidents
Mar 19, 2014
2,362
3,247
Houston TX
Right, I think much of the differences of opinion in this forum on this and other topics comes from some owners are tech people and some are car people. There is a wide gulf between those who never cared much about cars and fell in love with Tesla because of the tech aspect, and others for whom this is their latest expensive car.

Nailed it!
 

wk057

Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,654
11,363
Hickory, NC, USA
My experience with the blind spot warning system has been neutral to negative... mostly it's there, and I notice it sometimes... but it doesn't seem super useful with the alerts how they are. I've also had many false alarms (red arcs, buzz/beep) when going along side barriers or in heavy rain and such, which is annoying (the negative part). When I do pay attention to it, it seems to work as it should minus the false positives. The alert just isn't useful. I don't check the dash before changing lanes, I check mirrors and surroundings and there is no alert in those normal check areas.
 

breser

AutoPilot Nostradamus
Aug 28, 2014
2,314
94
North Bend, WA
They promised limited release of auto steering by the end of last month. Didn't happen. They promised autosteering "in a few months" , last year. Didn't happen.

End of the month was for early access customers, which means beta testers. They have never used the term "few", but they have used the term "several." As has been discussed many times, several is a vague term that doesn't mean any specific time frame. I'm pretty sure they used the term specifically because it was vague. My best guess for the next major addition has been October for quite some time. I'd guess based on the prediction of early access at the end of June means they are ahead of the schedule they predicted.

The website has been promoting it for the better part of a year with a bogus disclaimer about how it's being released in stages in small print. You can do that if it's almost available...but a year in advance? Borderline false advertising. Why not promote your flying car while you're at it...heck it will be available eventually.

This is a gross exaggeration. The text explaining that the features would be added over time has been along side the autopilot description in the same font size and color the entire time. The text has been updated over time to reflect the current state, but it has always been present. I have screenshots, I've posted them before when these sorts of arguments come up. I'm not going to bother reposting them. Just go look at the site right now. It's clear as day what's not available.
 

breser

AutoPilot Nostradamus
Aug 28, 2014
2,314
94
North Bend, WA
Unfortunately, dismissing my comments as "crying" doesn't actually get anything anywhere. I assure you, I'm a grown man and I assure you I'm not "crying" about anything here. So please don't be disrespectful.

The portion of your quote above is just plain wrong, and I outlined in the thread I started on the topic (so as not to derail this one further) things that could certainly be done to soften the issues with this situation that don't involve pushing unsafe software.

I don't see what's disrespectful about using the term crying. I think what you're doing falls into the definition:

cry·ing

(krī′ĭng)adj.
1.
Demanding or requiring action or attention: a crying need.

2. Abominable; reprehensible: a crying shame.



I'd be less likely to do this if you hadn't made repeated posts on this topic. I'm just going to ignore your almost certainly not serious threats of legal action. I respect you enough to not take them seriously.


I fully expect Tesla to come up with some gesture of good faith towards those of us who have been more than patient on the matter that will quell the need for any legal action for at least some time.

Like I said... an official progress update would be nice. A statement that warranty on autopilot hardware wouldn't start counting down until after 7.x was released would be more than enough for me, personally. Offer to refund/disable autopilot cost until it is available (as mentioned above). Something. Anything that proves that us early buyers weren't just victims of a marketing ploy and I would be happy. I'm sure most others would as well.

Given your legal threat I doubt Tesla can do anything for you now. Even saying sorry might be used in court against them as an admission of guilt. I'm sure lawyers will show up to debate this as this sort of issue gets debated endlessly as to if you should or shouldn't say sorry.

Statements of update on the status would probably imply that it's behind schedule and trigger a wave of media attention about how Tesla is falling short. Silence results in a few people like yourself grousing (feel free to object to that word too). But probably results in no real consequences for them.

Extending the warranty probably won't happen unless this becomes a publicity issue for them. Plus it wouldn't do anything to sell more cars because the only benefits of that would basically be customers like yourself that have cars with autopilot that are waiting for the update.

Would you actually seriously accept a refund and disabling of TACC? I have a hard time believing that's what you really want given your complaints before even TACC was available.

I'll point out that Tesla didn't do gestures of good will en masse for customers who complained about missing out on autopilot hardware. They might have done things, but as someone who might have been a beneficiary of said gestures, they have never suggested that the pricing on my trade-in was because of the situation. So I can only guess.

Of course Tesla has not done anything to mislead you. You've decided to anticipate the features well ahead of their availability and that your anticipated date has come and gone now you're frustrated. This of course is a normal human emotion. But it doesn't mean that Tesla wronged you. They never promised you anything on a specific time frame (MVPA says that nothing Tesla employees said to you is binding unless it's in the MVPA, see below quote).

Prior agreements, oral statements, negotiations, communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding.

I predict that you get absolutely nothing other than the feature being delivered to you when Tesla is ready to deliver it.

Edit: I'll point out that is exactly what you go for the next gen seats. Which is something you did have a reason to object on the delay. Because they were actually supposed to be on the car at delivery.
 
Last edited:

wk057

Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,654
11,363
Hickory, NC, USA
I'd be less likely to do this if you hadn't made repeated posts on this topic. I'm just going to ignore your almost certainly not serious threats of legal action. I respect you enough to not take them seriously.




Given your legal threat I doubt Tesla can do anything for you now. Even saying sorry might be used in court against them as an admission of guilt. I'm sure lawyers will show up to debate this as this sort of issue gets debated endlessly as to if you should or shouldn't say sorry.

Statements of update on the status would probably imply that it's behind schedule and trigger a wave of media attention about how Tesla is falling short. Silence results in a few people like yourself grousing (feel free to object to that word too). But probably results in no real consequences for them.

Extending the warranty probably won't happen unless this becomes a publicity issue for them. Plus it wouldn't do anything to sell more cars because the only benefits of that would basically be customers like yourself that have cars with autopilot that are waiting for the update.

Would you actually seriously accept a refund and disabling of TACC? I have a hard time believing that's what you really want given your complaints before even TACC was available.

I'll point out that Tesla didn't do gestures of good will en masse for customers who complained about missing out on autopilot hardware. They might have done things, but as someone who might have been a beneficiary of said gestures, they have never suggested that the pricing on my trade-in was because of the situation. So I can only guess.

Of course Tesla has not done anything to mislead you. You've decided to anticipate the features well ahead of their availability and that your anticipated date has come and gone now you're frustrated. This of course is a normal human emotion. But it doesn't mean that Tesla wronged you. They never promised you anything on a specific time frame (MVPA says that nothing Tesla employees said to you is binding unless it's in the MVPA, see below quote).



I predict that you get absolutely nothing other than the feature being delivered to you when Tesla is ready to deliver it.

Edit: I'll point out that is exactly what you go for the next gen seats. Which is something you did have a reason to object on the delay. Because they were actually supposed to be on the car at delivery.

I think you definitely need to take a step back and look at what you're saying here.

First, I'll just nitpick one thing: the MVPA. A line item on my MVPA specifically says "Tech Package with Autopilot." Nothing on my car can do can be defined as autopilot by any stretch of the definition. So if the MVPA is the final word, Tesla is in trouble because it definitely doesn't say anything about this feature not being available until later.

Next, I don't see any legal threat anywhere. Reserving the right to pursue legal action is hardly a threat. If Tesla has done no wrong here they'd have nothing to worry about from me anyway.

As for accepting a refund and disabling TACC, if that were actually an option I may have to take it on the principal of the situation, because TACC alone is not a $2500 line item. I highly doubt they would offer this to anyone, but it would definitely be the right thing to do for them to offer it with the specific condition that the feature can be bought and activated at a later date (at the same $500 penalty offered new buyers).

Gestures of good will for people who missed autopilot hardware? How is this comparable? They got what they paid for. Those who got autopilot hardware early got what they paid for and more. P85D buyers like myself specifically bought in for autopilot and paid for this feature. This is apples to oranges.

As for extending the warranty on the autopilot steering hardware this is most certainly the right thing for them to do. The hardware is impossible to utilize through no fault of ours. What if I had 50,000 miles on my car, got the autopilot update at 51k miles, and the hardware for the feature I paid for at delivery doesn't work at that time even though I've never been able to use it since delivery? That's my fault and I have to pay? Come on now. (In this hypothetical I'd think Tesla would work with you, but at say 25,000 mile activation and 51,000 mile failure... a gamble.)

Statements on the status of autopilot lane keeping should have been happening with or without me "crying" and would have gone a long way to build credibility, be it good or bad news.

Next gen seats is pretty much the same situation as this, also a paid line item on my MVPA. If Tesla had taken this long to deliver my next gen seats I would have an equal gripe with them about it. Fortunately my car was in fact delivered with front next gen seats, surprisingly, and I was updated constantly on the status of the rear seats. You won't find a single post anywhere where I'm "crying" about the rear seats, mainly due to the unsolicited and appreciated periodic status updates on the issue.

All that said, regardless of the definition you posted it is pretty well known that using the term "crying" in reference to an adult is belittling and disrespectful. Grousing is generally for complaining with nothing at stake or very little at stake, if I recall correctly, which this certainly is not. (Just checked the definition to be sure, and I don't think anything about a $135k vehicle could really be considered "petty".)
 

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