BUY FSD TODAY!

[Garlan Garner]

With respect, I disagree with you on both points: I think we are 5 to 10 years away from Level 4 autonomy, and 10 to 15 years away from Level 5, which would be full self-driving. But I think that once the cars are ready, regulatory approval will be extremely fast. FSD cars will be much safer, so there will be many people and institutions pushing for regulatory approval. The only opponents will be a few isolated Luddites. No established company or institution will lobby against approval, but many will be lobbying for approval because all the major automakers will be offering FSD cars at around the same time.



You seem to keep saying that EAP does not exist because it's beta. Yes, it's beta. And yes, it exists. I use it every time I drive my car. EAP exists now and is usable and I use it every time I drive.

FSD does not exist now in either of its two meanings, which you seem to conflate as though they were the same thing: Actual full self-driving does not exist in any car a consumer can buy today. And no Tesla offered for sale to the public today has any features not available in an EAP car, so the FSD package does not exist.

EAP exists today. FSD does not. Some day it will. But it does not yet. And Tesla has tacitly admitted that its "FSD" package is not really full self-driving. It's just a confusing marketing name for a set of driver-assist functions that Tesla is not yet ready to implement or even list.

"It seems like I'm saying...…?" No ….just take me word for word so nothing will seem like anything.

I'm saying EAP exists and its Beta. Period. That's all I've been saying. Period.

It exists because I use it EVERY DAY....LOL

 

[Az_Rael]

how do you incrementally roll out "full self driving?" either the car drives itself or it doesn't...

How about if it fully drives itself on freeways in stop and go under 40mph? No nags, handles all the merges, you just kick back and relax. Traffic picks up and you have to take back over. That would be incremental FSD implementation in my view, and well worth $3k for the option.

 

[crackers8199]

How about if it fully drives itself on freeways in stop and go under 40mph? No nags, handles all the merges, you just kick back and relax. Traffic picks up and you have to take back over. That would be incremental FSD implementation in my view, and well worth $3k for the option.

it already does that. if you're in stop and go, EAP works just fine without needing to handle any merges. there's no reason to try to be changing lanes all over the place if you're using EAP in that situation, IMO. it's not worth $3k just to not have to touch the steering wheel every so often when you're in stop and go traffic on the freeway. that's crazy talk.

plus, again, FULL SELF DRIVING is what the option is listed as and has been advertised/sold as. not "partial full self driving," or "self driving sometimes." if they tried to roll it out incrementally, i'd imagine they would have a class action suit on their hands from everyone who bought the model 3 when it was an option.

 

[eye.surgeon]

So you don't believe that ANY feature of FSD can be rolled out "for years"?

Why do you think that?

Many of the features of FSD have been rolled out for years. ACC, lane keep assist, automatic emergency braking, autopilot on the highway. I've been using them since day one and they're great. Do I believe that FSD will be a thing in the next 10 years? Like driving coast to coast unassisted? Not one bit.

 

[Daniel in SD]

You haven't been watching YouTube then because all P3D's on there are faster than 3.5.

Yes I am correct that Tesla could do whatever they want..... The reason that I think the way I do is because Tesla has done it before with air-conditioned seats and such. One day its there and then the next its part of another package.

Plenty of draggy results show about 3.5s. Obviously there is variance. A lot of youtubers make money from clicks so they’ll often make grandiose claims. It sounds like Tesla is now measuring 0-60 with 1 foot rollout or they’re about to do a software update.
Tesla already announced drive on Nav was coming to V9 for cars with EAP and are still listing it on their website. I doubt they’ll now decide to charge extra for it unless it turns out that it requires the new hardware.

 

[ronm2948]

it already does that. if you're in stop and go, EAP works just fine without needing to handle any merges.

No ... it does not already do that. You still need to hold on to the steering wheel and pay attention to your surroundings. In rare circumstances, EAP does mess up.

If I had a car that could do simple freeway driving in FSD mode where I did not even have to pay attention, that would be worth the $3K to me for that alone. And that is what I would call "incremental FSD". I think that Tesla is a LONG ways away from a fully self driving car, but EAP is actually pretty good, and it doesn't seem like it would take too much more development to do what EAP does, but without requiring the driver to pay attention. (Not sure about regulatory approval, etc., but I am just talking about what seems like could be done technically).

 

[Canuck]

how do you incrementally roll out "full self driving?" either the car drives itself or it doesn't...

Agreed, it's like trying to tell us that someone is a little bit pregnant. We'll never understand it. But others do and are prepared to ignore what words actually mean to try to make sense of it, when it simply doesn't make sense.

How about if it fully drives itself on freeways in stop and go under 40mph?

Case in point.

 

[Daniel in SD]

No ... it does not already do that. You still need to hold on to the steering wheel and pay attention to your surroundings. In rare circumstances, EAP does mess up.

If I had a car that could do simple freeway driving in FSD mode where I did not even have to pay attention, that would be worth the $3K to me for that alone. And that is what I would call "incremental FSD". I think that Tesla is a LONG ways away from a fully self driving car, but EAP is actually pretty good, and it doesn't seem like it would take too much more development to do what EAP does, but without requiring the driver to pay attention. (Not sure about regulatory approval, etc., but I am just talking about what seems like could be done technically).

That's level 3 self driving. Audi is going to offer a system called "traffic jam pilot" that does exactly that at speeds up to 37mph. Apparently it's only been approved for Florida so far. I could see Tesla offering that as an add-on. I'd hope they would add it to EAP ($5k is a lot of money!).
Audi Technology Portal - Audi A8 - Audi AI traffic jam pilot

 

[Gwgan]

Buy FSD TODAY!!!

IMO Tesla will refund money paid for FSD if begged but will invite those who did pay to apply it towards a new vehicle which is actually capable of FSD and then once those accounts are settled they will raise the price. Paying Tesla for a feature which does not exist is just a donation to the cause. Love ‘em, but dont’t trust ‘em.

 

[aronth5]

how do you incrementally roll out "full self driving?" either the car drives itself or it doesn't...

This is the crux of the problem for Tesla since by their own admission FSD does not imply the car always drives itself. Tesla states "In almost all circumstances" with emphasis on "almost". Does that mean it doesn't strictly confirm to level 5, yes but do I care nope.

Most of the time this will be fine for most people and over time the edge conditions where the driver has to take over will lessen. There are degrees of FSD and that is what we'll see over the next few years.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Plenty of draggy results show about 3.5s. Obviously there is variance. A lot of youtubers make money from clicks so they’ll often make grandiose claims. It sounds like Tesla is now measuring 0-60 with 1 foot rollout or they’re about to do a software update.
Tesla already announced drive on Nav was coming to V9 for cars with EAP and are still listing it on their website. I doubt they’ll now decide to charge extra for it unless it turns out that it requires the new hardware.

Per Tesla's website RIGHT NOW its not 3.5

Model 3 | Tesla

Tesla starts advertising quicker 0-60 mph acceleration for Model 3 Performance




Now...as to FSD.

Tesla/Elon is ONLY speaking of FSD "FEATURES" rolling out soon. JUST LIKE EAP - EAP features are rolling out more and more. EAP has not been rolled out yet....only some FEATURES of it.

Tesla to release first Full Self-Driving Autopilot features in upcoming Version 9 software

 

[JeffK]

Per Tesla's website RIGHT NOW its not 3.5

Yes, that's because they decided to change it to reflect times measured by subtracting rollout

We asked Tesla if the quicker acceleration time is due to updated software or hardware, but the automaker says that it is not the case.

The company decided to update the time to match what several reviewers and auto publications, like MotorTrend, have been getting: 3.3 seconds.

Those publications’ tests exclude the first foot rollout time, which has become somewhat standard in the industry.

Several owners have also been getting 3.3 second acceleration times with the stock wheels and tires when measured even with devices that don’t account for the first foot rollout.

With the first foot rollout, the Model 3 Performance is getting consistent 3.5-sec times, like Tesla was originally advertising.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Yes, that's because they decided to change it to reflect times measured by subtracting rollout

Tesla original listed 3.5 with no mention of rollout.

Now they list 3.3 with no mention of rollout. ( which BTW are the times all over YouTube - provided by the Tracks timers ).


Its 0 to 60

not 5 to 60.

 

[JeffK]

Tesla original listed 3.5 with no mention of rollout.

Now they list 3.3 with no mention of rollout. ( which BTW are the times all over YouTube - provided by the Tracks timers ).


Its 0 to 60

not 5 to 60.

They should really mention that they are, in fact, now using rollout on the website. I feel like this is false advertising. As I've mentioned on threads regarding the new performance numbers, they are opening themselves up to lawsuits unless they give a disclaimer like they do for S/X performance models.

You'll note they also used to list cash prices in the vehicle selection and now they list "after incentive" prices which is also misleading, but at least with that they have the disclaimer (in two separate spots).

 

[KenF]

Now...as to FSD.

Tesla/Elon is ONLY speaking of FSD "FEATURES" rolling out soon. JUST LIKE EAP - EAP features are rolling out more and more. EAP has not been rolled out yet....only some FEATURES of it.

Tesla to release first Full Self-Driving Autopilot features in upcoming Version 9 software

+1. EAP as marketed by Tesla doesn’t exist but many here still find a lot of value in “EAP features.” I suspect it may be 4 years or more before we see level 4 autonomous city driving in a Tesla, but, in the interim, I expect many will find a lot of value in the “FSD features” (e.g., no-nag level 3 autonomous driving from on-ramp to off-ramp) that Tesla rolls out in 2019 and 2020.

 

[JeffK]

Right on. EAP as marketed by Tesla (since 2006?) doesn’t exist yet but many here still find it quite useful during their daily commutes. I suspect it may be 5 years before we see level 4 autonomous driving in a Tesla, but, in the interim, I expect many of us will find a lot of value in the “FSD features” (e.g., level 3 autonomous driving from on-ramp to off-ramp) that Tesla rolls out in 2019 and 2020.

I honestly think Tesla will skip lvl 3 altogether. True lvl 3 is more difficult than lvl 4 and 5.

 

[FinallyGotMyM3]

I paid for FSD on my M3 but now on Tesla.com it is gone. It only shows EAP.

 

[TT97]

I honestly think Tesla will skip lvl 3 altogether. True lvl 3 is more difficult than lvl 4 and 5.

How do you figure? Level 4 needs to do everything Level 3 can do plus more.

 

[JeffK]

How do you figure? Level 4 needs to do everything Level 3 can do plus more.

Unlike level 4 and 5, level 3 requires the ability to do a human hand off with enough time for the human to respond. Since humans respond more slowly than computers, the machine has to anticipate events far enough ahead to give the human time to take over. With levels 4 and 5 this is not the case and humans are not expected to take over.

In level 4, for example, if the vehicle encounters a situation it cannot handle it simply pulls over and gives up. Since computers can react much faster than a human, this distance doesn't have to be large and predictions of future events don't have to go that far into the future. In level 3, the human is expected to take over, but in enough time to handle the event, thus longer distances and longer predictions of other road objects. Certain events happen too quickly for such a handoff to occur.

So no, lvl 4 and 5 do not have to do everything lvl 3 does. The human factor is not needed.

 

[TT97]

Unlike level 4 and 5, level 3 requires the ability to do a human hand off with enough time for the human to respond. Since humans respond more slowly than computers, the machine has to anticipate events far enough ahead to give the human time to take over. With levels 4 and 5 this is not the case and humans are not expected to take over.

In level 4, for example, if the vehicle encounters a situation it cannot handle it simply pulls over and gives up. Since computers can react much faster than a human, this distance doesn't have to be large and predictions of future events don't have to go that far into the future. In level 3, the human is expected to take over, but in enough time to handle the event, thus longer distances and longer predictions of other road objects. Certain events happen too quickly for such a handoff to occur.

So no, lvl 4 and 5 do not have to do everything lvl 3 does. The human factor is not needed.

It would take longer for a vehicle to "give up" than for a handoff to occur.

In Level 3, a human driver is expected to respond but the vehicle can always give up if the human driver does not respond. In Level 4, "the driving mode-specific performance by an automated driving system of all aspects of the dynamic driving task, even if a human driver does not respond appropriately to a request to intervene."

A vehicle in Level 4 needs to act the same as a Level 3 vehicle but also needs to be able to handle any situation that a human would do in Level 3.