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Double vision (ghosting) at night through windshield?

Discussion in 'Model X: Interior & Exterior' started by rmiggins, Jan 19, 2016.

  1. Jeff McClure

    Jeff McClure Member

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    I reported the issue on April 5th, on the 6th the SC told me they were going to order a new windshield. I have not heard anything since then. I should probably send an email to inquire on status.
     
  2. greg t

    greg t Member

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    Apparently because of Jeff and FA1820 my SC responded on April 8 that Tesla is now looking into this and offered either (1) an immediate windshield replacement, or (2) to wait to confirm that they have a replacement windshield that will not have the same problem. I said I'd wait until they find and confirm a windshield that does not replicate the issue since it did not occur in a Model S 60kwh (2-3 older?) version but did in a second 2016 model S 70kwh. So I think this is a recent glass issue.

    For anyone that says this is the "new normal" for windshields, or just the way the glass is, or its because of Tesla's steep glass angle, none of those justifications are very helpful. I've recently driven in two different Hondas, an Audi, a BMW, a Toyota Prius, etc... and NONE have this issue with night driving.

    FA1820's description above about the many replicated headlights is the most accurate and identical to mine. Most dramatically noticeable are horizontal and linear LED light sources like the Tesla/Audi LED DRL's and taillights.
     
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  3. Mark Z

    Mark Z Active Member

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    I haven't done a careful study of this since the Model X was at the SC for almost 2 weeks.

    Today I washed Model X carefully, so the windshield is ready for a night drive. I will wear the non-progressive eyeglasses, because the progressive ones could add double and triple images unless the clearest and sharpest location of the eyeglasses is positioned properly.
     
  4. Colby Boles

    Colby Boles Member

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    This - partial internal reflection - due to the grazing angle of the windshield slope relative to the image source. After each internal reflection the light travels vertically (due to the slope being in the vertical axis) in the glass and then reflects off the other surface, then back, and some of the light makes it to your eye, but only after being shifted vertically first. You would get this problem even if it was a single layer of glass and not laminated. The refractive index of the PVB interlayer is about 1.47-1.50 which is very close to glass at 1.52, so I wouldn't expect noticeable ghost images due to the individual laminations, but the air-windshield-air (1.00 <-> 1.52 <-> 1.00) light path leads to trouble at high angles and glass thicknesses.
     
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  5. ohmman

    ohmman Maximum Plaid Member

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    My thoughts are:
    • There is a reason for ghosting or multiple images that is firmly based in optics, and most raked windshields display at least some level of this artifact
    • The Model X windshield, due to its size and angle, is likely to display more artifacts than in other comparable vehicles
    • Some of the Model X windshields may have a manufacturing flaw which emphasizes or exaggerates the ghosting.
    Considering the last point, I think it's possible that some of us see "nothing," meaning very little, and some see something that's unacceptable for night driving.

    I'm going to wait to see what the resolution is for those who seem to have the biggest issues. If they get a replacement, and notice a vast improvement, it's obviously manufacturing.
     
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  6. FA1820

    FA1820 Member

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    About time that @greg t is getting a replacement or an acknowledgment about thsi problem. It is one thing to try to explain away the double /triple vision on a Model X, it is entirely a different issue to ignore it on a model S.
    Thank you @greg t for calling out those who think this is the new normal. I'd like to see a picture that is taken at night from inside a model X when a 'normal' double vision is noticeable.


    I have not heard back from Tesla but I believe they are trying to get to the bottom of it and I turst they will.
     
  7. Mark Z

    Mark Z Active Member

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    I carefully looked through the Model X windshield last night and did notice some doubling above bright headlights. Since I don't like staring at headlights when I drive, this problem is not an concern for me when driving the teenage VIN Model X.

    Those with zero vision artifacts could be bothered by the reflections. Even though I can read the 20/15 line during vision tests while wearing glasses, there is a lessening of perfect vision later in life. Extremely bright objects with a dark background may have a slight glow or starburst around the object. IMHO, an individual's vision quality could mask Model X windshield reflections.
     
  8. Colby Boles

    Colby Boles Member

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    The optical path also depends on the height of the observer's eyes. Everything gets worse the higher up you go - the glass angle, the angle to the subject(s), etc. - although you might even reach the point of total internal reflection in some regions wherein you can't see out at all and technically the doubling will have gone away. I would think this problem would be worse the higher up your eyes are, so a high seat position or a long torso could make it worse. I'm 6'4" but a good part of it is in the legs department so I'm curious to see how bad this is once I get my MX.
     
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  9. Phil Holt

    Phil Holt New Member

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    Yes.. I have honda odessey 2010 and see same disortions at night. My wife called it to my attention as she is trying out new contacts. I suddenly realized I was used to this new normal...I thought it was old age on my part and was too ashamed to admit it.
     
  10. rmiggins

    rmiggins Member

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    Hi everyone. Sorry we have to meet on these circumstances. I'm the original poster here and have ignored the topic (and this thread) for 3 months out of pure frustration. The I noticed this CNET article and came back today.

    So, I'm happy (I guess) to see I'm not the only one with this problem.

    I finally got my local technician to come by my house for a night drive so he could see the double and triple vision for himself.

    "Great, so you see this too? Now what?"
    He raised a ticket with the glass team internally, told me there was an active thread about this and that they were speaking to the supplier. But... that was about 2 months ago. Since then, I have heard NOTHING. This surprises me because in my previous experience as an early Model S owner their service has been 'over the top' good.

    If it was:
    "We'll fix it" - GREAT.
    "We're working on it" - OK, keep me posted.
    But no communication at all has left me completely in the dark and, frankly, regretting my purchase at times. In my case, the double and triple vision at night is just plain awful and unsafe - not just a nuisance but a legit safety issue.

    Given the numbers, I will check back in and see if/when I qualify for a new windshield.

    #unhappy
     
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  11. FA1820

    FA1820 Member

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    @rmiggins,
    From the CNET article:
    ---
    Tesla doesn't appear too concerned, for what it's worth. "Reflections (ghosting) occurs in all laminated glass to varying degrees," a Tesla spokesperson said in an emailed statement. "This is most frequently seen at night and can affect some drivers more than others. We have received only a small number of questions from Model X customers about the windshield and have taken action to address these unique cases."
    ---
    HAve you called Tesla to see what actions they have taken to address your "unique" case?
     
  12. MostlyStock

    MostlyStock Member

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    I'm guessing Tesla is using Gorilla glass or something like it or one of the layers. I think if the two layers of glass are not the same it would be very hard to avoid reflections, ghosting or other issues. I'm not sure this issue will be easily fixed as lighter glass is likely required for the Model X front windshield. You can read more about Gorilla glass in cars at the link below.

    CORNING® GORILLA® GLASS | AUTOMOTIVE
     
  13. Farnigus

    Farnigus Member

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    I've got the double vision problem too. Its primarily only noticeable at night, and with light sources (e.g. brake lights and headlights).
     
  14. Spidy

    Spidy Active Member

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    If this didn't get much attention at Tesla so far I guess it will now...

    Early-Build Tesla Model X SUVs Face Quality Issues
     
  15. FA1820

    FA1820 Member

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    @Farnigus, if what you see at night looks similar to the pictures we have posted here, then I suggest you contact your local SC. If one has to look closely to notice the effect, then based on what others say, it is considered normal.
     
  16. Farnigus

    Farnigus Member

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    For me, its definitely not something that you have to look "closely" to see, it was obvious on its own the first time I was driving at night.

    I've got a few things for the SC to check out, but I'm going to save it until I have to bring it in for the 3rd row seat recall. Unfortunately, I really don't have time to drop by the service center for every little thing that pops up. I'm planning on showing them a bunch of little problems when I take it in for the recall...
     
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  17. vandacca

    vandacca ReActive Member

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  18. Skotty

    Skotty 2014 S P85 | 2020 3 P19"

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    Since this is a property of physics that cannot be easily eliminated, the question is whether or not some of the X windshields are significantly worse than others. Any reported windshield would need to be compared against a baseline windshield to determine if it is within spec or not.

    If it's within spec and is still a problem for the owner, unfortunately the only recourse may be for the owner to replace the vehicle with a less aerodynamic vehicle that has a more vertical windshield.
     
  19. Phil Seastrand

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    We picked up our Model X on Monday have driven it twice at night and haven't seen the problem.
     
  20. engle

    engle Member

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    Hmmm... Why would he be driving an "older" pre-production factory-owned Model X that was being tested for its battery... unless... maybe that battery is the anticipated 100 kWh? (sorry to go O.T. I'll look for this refraction issue next time I drive my 41X production X at night)
     
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