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Drive Unit failure symptoms and thresholds for replacement
- Thread starter supratachophobia
- Start date
This is Tesla's "aggressive" approach. Deploy early, make iterative improvements. As far as I understand, they remove the expensive components, replace with another one, ship the removed part back to base for rebuild, rebuild, possibly replacing problematic components, ship it out for use as a replacement. They're expensive components so it's worth rebuilding them. It'd be great to see a graph to know whether they've actually been making improvements over time.
^^ this. Granted, we aren't seeing many of the early problems - door handles not working, doors opening randomly, cars leaking, alcantara/headliner issues, pano roof issues, etc. But the drive unit and 12v battery issues seem to persist. Now the P85D w/ air suspension has a shock "design issue" that is causing the shocks to make a sound when going over bumps. Tesla is in the process of "redesigning" the shocks and will issue a service bulletin for affected vehicles. Another example of not properly testing something, waiting for owners to have problems, then send back to engineering for a redesign.
THAT'S NOT HOW YOU DESIGN A CAR! That's how you piss off owners and show the world that you have low initial quality.
It cannot scale no matter what Tesla says. Here in Arizona, we have one service center for the entire state of Arizona, western New Mexico, and southeastern California. You'd think Tesla would be building more service centers here, but they aren't. There are over 1,500 Model S vehicles here in Arizona, not to mention the ones in New Mexico and southeastern California. That's a lot for a single service center, especially when the cars are nowhere near as reliable as Nissans or Toyotas. Tesla has recently enacted a 10-mile radius for valet service, so I will no longer receive the free valet service that I had previously received living 48 miles from the service center. That is Tesla cutting back on some of this excellent service as the fleet scales. It's relatively minor, but an indication of things to come. Sell us a promise as early adopters, to make the sale, then gradually change that promise over time because it was never a sustainable promise in the first place. This seems to be a funny way of doing business for a company that wants to move the world to sustainable transportation.
I appreciate that Tesla decided that it needs to iterate quickly as an automotive startup, but doesn't that come at the owner's expense? Regardless of the service experience, it's still an inconvenience when the car throws an error, you must take the time to call service for diagnosis, then drive the car into service if it's more than 10 miles from the service center, etc. Thankfully I've received a Model S loaner every time, but only because I insisted upon it and scheduled far enough in advance because that's important to me. Most owners here get an Enterprise rental, which is another disappointment. Elon promised a Model S loaner for every service. Another example of pissing away owner loyalty.
Most automobile companies field test their vehicles in all sorts of extreme conditions before committing to production. They test the car in conditions ranging from bitter, cold winter weather to scorching, hot desert summers. I've yet to hear one example of Tesla doing this with any of their cars. In 2012 and 2013 we had reports of side view mirror components corroding due to salt exposure. The same issues affected structural beams in the frunk. All required service bulletins and an iterative fix in manufacturing. This doesn't happen if you properly field test your cars in the first place. Those problems will express themselves during testing, and a traditional car company would solve those problems before putting the model on sale. Tesla appears to do none of this.
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So let's say that kennybobby is right. Let's also assume that for whatever reason, this particular design is the lesser of the evils on how to design something with so much torque.
There should be an up front admittance that regular maintenance of said bearings is required at certain intervals. And not this ethereal unknown that it might happen or feigned ignorance.
There should be an up front admittance that regular maintenance of said bearings is required at certain intervals. And not this ethereal unknown that it might happen or feigned ignorance.
I was told by service that the hum above 70 MPH is a bearing lubrication issue. Lack of lubrication of the bearings causes something in the DU to warp - a seal or ring or something like that - which results in the vibrational noise. I could be off, since the explanation was quick and I was doing other things at the time.
Fair enough, let's say that is the issue. At 15k miles, you come in, get your tires rotated, grab a complemenarty bottled water (unless you are in CA), and they top of the fluid.
You see, if it really was that easy to predict and fix, they wouldn't have drive unit failures across 60k vins. I think they need to decide sooner rather than later if they are going to be up front about a design flaw or be upfront about miscommunicating regular maintenance for their particular implementation of electric drive-train.
Because we all know where this puts out of warranty cars, up a creek with a broken $10k+ paddle.
You think the evolution of AWD was purely for efficiancy, speed, and traction? The car was already doing great in all of those. I think they want less stress on a the larger rear motor. And I bet there is a collective sigh of relief that AWD makes that possible.
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
No car has, or ever will have, a 0 defect rate. So the relevant questions are, what failure rate is acceptable, and what failure rate constitutes a design flaw?
Then of course you need to know what failure rate is Tesla having. The implication in this thread seems to be it's really high, but I haven't seen any data for that. Consumer Reports says the failure rate is pretty average for the industry. I would like to see Tesla do better, but I don't see evidence they have a serious problem now. (There was clearly a problem with the drivetrains they shipped to Norway; those have been replaced but it seems like that was a separate issue).
Tesla is moving fast, and growing fast while trying to save money - problems are certainly possible and we should watch for them. But I haven't see anything that has me concerned about this yet (of course I may have missed something - please point me to another thread if I did). If their replacement rate is 2% (say 1% for real or impending failures and 1% for noises that are not serious but they replaced just in case and because it was easy and the customer was complaining) then we would expect them to have replaced 1,000 drivetrains so far. If 10% of them post here, we'd expect to hear 100 reports. Obviously I am just picking numbers and don't know what the real ones are, but trying to illustrate that we should EXPECT many reports of replaced drivetrains here even if there is no design flaw.
Then of course you need to know what failure rate is Tesla having. The implication in this thread seems to be it's really high, but I haven't seen any data for that. Consumer Reports says the failure rate is pretty average for the industry. I would like to see Tesla do better, but I don't see evidence they have a serious problem now. (There was clearly a problem with the drivetrains they shipped to Norway; those have been replaced but it seems like that was a separate issue).
Tesla is moving fast, and growing fast while trying to save money - problems are certainly possible and we should watch for them. But I haven't see anything that has me concerned about this yet (of course I may have missed something - please point me to another thread if I did). If their replacement rate is 2% (say 1% for real or impending failures and 1% for noises that are not serious but they replaced just in case and because it was easy and the customer was complaining) then we would expect them to have replaced 1,000 drivetrains so far. If 10% of them post here, we'd expect to hear 100 reports. Obviously I am just picking numbers and don't know what the real ones are, but trying to illustrate that we should EXPECT many reports of replaced drivetrains here even if there is no design flaw.
That's the best part of this thread. If they have a design flaw and/or lack of regular maintenance is causing an issue (fluid), then it's a question of when, not if. Now we have to ask which drivers will see that in their ownership lifetime. I will grant that it looks like less overall stress to the drive-train would stretch out having an issue.
So now I want lifetime watts/mile and mileage graphed against DU replacement. I think that will be very enlightening.
I'm with AmpedRealtor and the others who are a little disappointed with the quality of some aspects of the car. Overall the quality is actually pretty good, but there are several issues that should not be in a production car. None of them are critical, though and every single one them has been taken serious by the service centers. The reason I'm not as upset as others here is because Tesla created something that wasn't there before and no one else wanted to do. They made the best EV that surpasses every other EV. It's the only EV that meets my requirements and it has surpassed every requirement and expectation I had. Tesla deserves credit for making something like that happen and mass produce it. The importance of that by far outweighs the issues I see with the car right now. Tesla has changed the car industry forever. It's the beginning of the end for big oil and the change over to sustainable energy. Getting free service to fix the small issues is an inconvenience I'm willing to accept thinking about the big picture.
SeminoleFSU
Voluntaryist
I have the milling sound, a power transformer-like buzzing sound under low accelerator levels, and am now getting a clunk, especially when putting it in reverse and starting to roll backwards. Mentioned all of this to my service guy who promised they would do a "ride/recording" of the car to send to engineering for analysis. It rained the day they had it, and since the roads were wet they skipped the test because the roads were too wet and told me to remind them next time I have it in for service. I'm keeping a close ear on it, but I do think mine is as bad as other people's who have had replacements... Based on their descriptions at least.. The milling, low transformer buzz and clunk aren't nearly as annoying as the loud drone noise that makes my car sound like a souped up Honda civic with aftermarket exhaust above 75-80MPH. that gets really annoying on long trips :-(
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Of course it's an inconvenience you live with until the drive unit fails during an otherwise normal day of driving. The problem is that I may or may not have something important to do or not to do. Again, it's not an if, it's a when. And everyone on here who experiences the symptoms are xxxx miles away from failure.
NuclearPowered
Member
I thought the hum I am hearing above 75 mph was the tires. I probably have the same issue. My car hasnt had a DU replacement afaik (got it used).
I have not heard of a drive unit fail on any Model S owner yet. Maybe there were a handful, but that's not a general quality issue. Every car manufacturer has to deal with a few cases of failed parts. The drive unit problems discussed widely are all non-critical and the service will fix them. Elon even later added the drive unit to the full warranty.
Are you sure? I feel so much better now.
I thought some owners had experienced an error message along the lines of "pull car over safely to side of the road". Or am I confusing drive unit failure in the wild with 12v failure?
There are definitely far fewer total drive unit failures than drive unit noise issues, but there are definitely some. Some examples:
Pull over Safely, Restart Car to Drive
Stuck on the Freeway - 2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Road Test that resulted in Is the Third Drive Unit the Charm? - 2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Road Test
Drive Unit Replacement Poll - Page 9 led to Drive Unit Replacement Poll - Page 9
Drive Unit Replacement Poll - Page 12
Drive Unit Replacement Poll - Page 15 (supposedly)
Drive Unit Replacement Poll - Page 15
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Yes. David is correct.
The pull over message can happen for a variety of reasons (including sensor failure). it would be nice if there was additional information when you press the alert button on the screen (even if it was just something like "Pull over safely: cooling problem"), but as far as I can tell the alert button just repeats what's shown on the popup.
gavine
Petrol Head turned EV Enthusiast
Has Tesla ever had an NHTSA recall? Recalls are very common in the industry but not having one would have you presume that a lot of testing went into the Model S before coming to market.
Every drive unit in every car ever made fails eventually. This is not something I worry about. However, I heard something when I was eight or ten from one of my childhood friend's father (who was a mechanic) that I've always kept in mind. "Every time you go a little fast around a corner or accelerate a little hard, you pay for it down the road with automotive repair bills."
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