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"Fleet Speed" (mis-)feature in 2019.8.6+
- Thread starter rnortman
- Start date
Only when AP is active.
Could set the AP speed to use the highest (successful) non-AP run (or a percentage of it).
I am on 2018.50.6 with AP1 and have always had slight braking while passing some highway offramps while in the right lane but never any extreme braking. Did your car slam on the brakes?
If so maybe I’ll hold off on the 2019 upgrades for now. I have no dogs; geo based mirror folding seems useful but not worth getting rear ended on the highway.
In our neck of the woods @mongo we have a triple decker overpass that has on ramps and connecters. One of them has an average left lane speed north of 85mph, with very high traffic on bottom lane going under. People so close I can't see the front bumper at 85mph in rear view mirror. I have to change lanes a mile ahead of time. Slow down. 85 to 60 just like that. Then get back in that lane. Fear of just causing a 10 car pile-up and loss of a Tesla. In my case it is the lanes above or below.
This information from the OP seems to indicate that cars are assisting in mapping. Where is does Tesla pull lane data from, and are the cars able to add back to that data set? Would be interesting if possible. Would also say the "Fleet" drives slow as molasses.
Mhoepfin
Member
Never extreme braking. But thought there was some slowing next to an on ramp. May have been my imagination though.
My car definitely slows for two particular offramps on my commute route even though I stay on the highway. It starts like a coast for a second then feels like 1/2 powered regen at which point the brake lights illuminate. A quick tap of the accelerator pedal gets it going again.
Yes, slamming on the brakes is one symptom. The car clear loses track of the speed limit and suddenly believes the speed limit has dropped to 25mph. It may think I'm on a ramp or it may think I'm on one of the local roads criss-crossing below the highway. This is the problem with relying on GPS to know where you are -- it's not always super accurate especially in the elevation dimension.
There are other symptoms, like randomly dropping the speed by 5-10mph below my set point at inappropriate times, which leads to jerky uncomfortable driving. I'm sure this works well in the Bay area where there are lots of Teslas and therefore lots of data, but in my neck of the woods, Teslas are still a bit rare, which makes this "fleet speed" thing really a bad idea.
I have noticed several different symptoms. The worst symptom is that there are several areas on my regular commute where it actually thinks the speed limit has dropped to 25mph. The speed limit indicator shows 25mph and the car slams on the brakes. This cannot actually be "fleet speed" even though that's what they told me after supposedly reviewing my logs -- fleet speed is not supposed to affect the speed limit display, only the set point. This is simply the car thinking it's either on a ramp or on one of the local roads nearby/underneath the highway. But it did not happen like this in earlier firmware; something has changed for the worse, and I don't know what relationship it has to Fleet Speed, if any.
Another thing that happens frequently is that near exits it will not adjust either the speed limit nor the TACC set speed, but will still hit me with some brake stabs and generally nervous-driver-style speed changes for no apparent reason. This has also gotten worse in the 2019 firmware. I wonder if they are trying to remove some of the radar blacklisting that's been in place for a long time to handle overhead signs, but still having issues. (Especially in areas outside of CA without a large number of Tesla drivers to give them lots of data.)
Another thing which has been happening more and more over the past few months with every new firmware release feels a lot more like what is described as "Fleet Speed", and that's the car adjusting the TACC setpoint (not the speed limit display) when on ramps. This is not a feature I ever asked for or wanted in my cruise control. It's clearly important for Nav on AP and FSD, but I don't have those things enabled -- when I'm just running TACC, I want TACC to behave like plain old adaptive cruise control, not NOA/FSD. In an area with relatively few Tesla cars on the road, and highly variable speeds according to weather and traffic conditions, Fleet Speed is just a terrible idea. One of the ramps I take routinely is totally safe at 55mph when the roads are dry, but yeah I and every other driver will take it slower when roads are slick. How is Fleet Speed going to know the difference? For other ramps it depends a lot on traffic flow. They just need to give us the option of disabling this, or disable it automatically when NOA is not activated.
Overall, I'm really growing weary of being not just an unpaid beta tester but a paying beta tester for Tesla. They should test their software before they release it, and if any behavior regresses for me after an update, they need to let me roll back until they fix it. This just makes me feel so helpless. I don't want FSD, I don't want NOA, I never believed in any of those things and Tesla is clearly struggling to deliver them at the expense of the core TACC/Autosteer functionality. Tesla, can you just give me functioning, smooth TACC and lane keeping, like I paid for? Like so many other cheaper cars offer?
So "Fleet Speed" is Tesla's solution to the extremely poor speed limit data base that has missing or incorrect speed limits on many roads.
But this solution is just as flawed as "HD maps" because unless the Fleet Speed is updated in real-time, it will also be incorrect in areas of recent road changes - such as setting of new speed limits (that doesn't happen very often) or changes due to new or completed road construction.
While Fleet Speed may be better than the onboard speed limit data base - it's still going to be inaccurate.
A better solution is to use Posted Speed Limit - replicating what Mobileye provided with AP1 - reading the speed limit signs. That also has challenges because there are locations where speed limit signs are ambiguous when placed between adjacent roads - and you can sometimes drive by a speed limit sign and have it blocked by an adjacent vehicle.
Until they get this working much better, to avoid the unnecessary rapid breaking in the middle of high speed traffic, Tesla should provide a setting to disable this feature.
Or, they should fix the feature:
But this solution is just as flawed as "HD maps" because unless the Fleet Speed is updated in real-time, it will also be incorrect in areas of recent road changes - such as setting of new speed limits (that doesn't happen very often) or changes due to new or completed road construction.
While Fleet Speed may be better than the onboard speed limit data base - it's still going to be inaccurate.
A better solution is to use Posted Speed Limit - replicating what Mobileye provided with AP1 - reading the speed limit signs. That also has challenges because there are locations where speed limit signs are ambiguous when placed between adjacent roads - and you can sometimes drive by a speed limit sign and have it blocked by an adjacent vehicle.
Until they get this working much better, to avoid the unnecessary rapid breaking in the middle of high speed traffic, Tesla should provide a setting to disable this feature.
Or, they should fix the feature:
- If you override the speed when it is unnecessarily reduced, your desired speed should be updated in your local speed limit data base and used the next time you drive that road
- When you override the speed, that should be sent immediately to Tesla's cloud server
- And when a route is calculated using Tesla's cloud server, it should send down the latest reported Fleet Speeds for all of the roads on the route
- And Fleet Speed should never be updated using speeds recorded when the AP system is detecting traffic congestion
Nilnoc
Member
I drove over 300 interstate miles on AP yesterday and didn't get any of this behavior whilst passing interchanges. On 2019.12.1.1
You caught us, we're all making it up. AP works great.
Seriously, this stuff is highly dependent on the circumstances -- the roads you're travelling on (how well marked? how complex/tight? How many criss-crossing local roads at/near the interchange?), the weather and traffic conditions, and the quality of the maps in your area. Sometimes it will work just fine. It reliably fails for me at several places on my commute, and it used to work just fine in those places. Tesla has broken a core feature of my car (one not in beta as I understand it -- cruise control), and they need to fix it one way or another.
I agree, AP should have slowed down here. It is basically a blind corner that AP should detect just as in real-life. In the Netherlands we have lots of such exits and AP fails often. Using fleet speed is indeed cheating just as HD maps are. To me it seems fleet speed isn't context aware. For example, the speed between rush hours vs. regular and it seems it isn't even lane based. So fleet speed *really* atleast needs to factor in the lane and how dynamically take note of how busy the surrounding is.
I agree that Autopilot (edit: by which I mean, Navigate on Autopilot or FSD-type features) needs to slow down on curves like this. IMO, TACC should not, or should offer an option to the user to disable slowing down for sharp curves. I use TACC not as a self-driving feature but as cruise control; I am driving the car. I always disengage for curves anyway because letting TACC do it is like being a driving instructor for a 16-year-old high on cocaine. It's not pleasant.
My big complaint is that suddenly TACC is slowing down for curves that I am not even on. It's slowing down -- quite dramatically in many cases -- for ramps when I am not on the ramp. This is a big problem that affects my ability to just use cruise control for what it's good for -- cruising on the highway.
Kant.Ing
Member
Also on the wider time domain. Say the stretch was undergoing some construction and cars slowed down during the construction. After several days/weeks the construction completes, you don't want your cars still drive slow.
Wow, they need another NN for applying this, hence HW4!
They still can't make Smart Preconditioning even vaguely smart after all these years.... you think they're going to figure this out?
No, they just need to abandon this poorly thought out "feature".
quickstrike12
Member
I have been so frustrated with the speed control I’ve just about stopped using the AP in most of the major hwys here in the Dallas Fort Worth metroplex. It’s just to many speed changes with all the interchanges and overpasses etc....
I don’t know what the fix is, this could be harder problem to solve than first perceived.
At this point at least in the interim I would like to just have the speed be whatever I set. Of course slow for traffic if needed but otherwise just maintain my settings.
Hopefully something will be done soon.
Again mine is fine put away from the major portions of the city interchanges but just terrible in morning rush hour with all the speed changes.
I don’t know what the fix is, this could be harder problem to solve than first perceived.
At this point at least in the interim I would like to just have the speed be whatever I set. Of course slow for traffic if needed but otherwise just maintain my settings.
Hopefully something will be done soon.
Again mine is fine put away from the major portions of the city interchanges but just terrible in morning rush hour with all the speed changes.
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