FSD Beta 10.12

[Skione65]

Sorry I wasnt more clear, The “it” was the red warning to keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention to the road. Both of which I was doing at the time so I disengaged FSD quickly So as not to incur another false strike. A few moments later I engaged FSD again and the message again popped up instantly.

Interestingly, a few miles later I decided to cancel my navigation destination thinking FSD would fail again. So while on a freeway I engaged autopilot and the red warning to pay attention to the road still popped up. I wasn’t until the car shut down and was asleep for a half hour or so the the issue went away again. Seems random.

I will say that prior to this release I had been getting a “cabin camera unavailable” message. I’ve ignored it cause it hasn’t affected FSD beta till now. That and my nearest service center is 2.5 hours away. But I don’t believe the camer issue is related to this latest error

I would think the “camera unavailable” WOULD be related? My opinion. Maybe that’s what is triggering the warnings and strikes albeit possibly unwarranted.

Ski

 

[Skione65]

Not saying this was the issue but in a previous post about this you did mention you were wearing sun glasses. Again Not saying this is your fault simply recognizing Why you may have had an issue and most do not. When an issue pops up I like to review the info based on “what did he do different then most” that would make his result special or unique. Guessing at this point….. I would bet as the system progresses and users do all they can to bypass safety devices (hundreds of clowns on YouTube) they are likely dialing up certain sensitivity levels (like cameras) to minimize the override. Wearing sun glasses has been posted many times to “get by” the camera safety and close your eyes. Again just an Opinion. For what it’s worth, previous Beta versions you Absolutely could wear black shades and go to sleep. (Not saying I tried this….)

On that note. It got me thinking……what is the percentage of testers that regularly wear sunglasses testing FSD Beta and have/or have had no issues? (Up to and with/through this update)? I have eye sensitivity to bright sunlight and am in this camp, no issues (knock on wood). Maybe a poll?

Ski

 

[Skione65]

Yes, I was wearing sunglasses. I have no way of knowing if that was the issue or not - it's never seemed to be an issue in the past and any driver monitoring system had better be able to deal with sunglasses but it's impossible to say. Like you said, maybe they changed the algorithm and it now has troubles?

The other thing I thought of was I did have my coffee in the car. I honestly can't remember if I had my coffee cup in my hand or not, but did it think I was holding my cell phone? Again, I drink coffee every morning on the way to work (like half the country does) and it's never been a problem in the past, but it's the only other thing I can think of.

On multiple occasions in the past I've had alerts pop up saying "pay attention to the road" despite the fact that I'm looking straight ahead telling me their algorithm is poor at best.

I’ve got a black 16oz. Kleen Kanteen I sometimes bring/use in my center console cup holder filled with ice water, especially in the summer. Now I’m nervous if this would “trip” a warning thinking it’s a black iPhone? As one picks it up and brings it to the mouth and tilts it to drink which which partially cover your chin/nose/face. Hmmmmmmm…..Overthinking or valid concern? Seems Elons definitely possibly “tightening” these monitoring algos.

Ski

 

[2101Guy]

Ahh..now the "return to office or be fired" statement makes sense. Voluntary attrition since about 11,000 Tesla employees about to be cut

Elon Musk reportedly orders hiring freeze, 10 percent staff reduction at Tesla

Tesla has had staff cutbacks in four of the last five years.

www.theverge.com

 

[g1000x]

Ahh..now the "return to office or be fired" statement makes sense. Voluntary attrition since about 11,000 Tesla employees about to be cut

Elon Musk reportedly orders hiring freeze, 10 percent staff reduction at Tesla

Tesla has had staff cutbacks in four of the last five years.

www.theverge.com

Wrong thread.

 

[nvx1977]

On that note. It got me thinking……what is the percentage of testers that regularly wear sunglasses testing FSD Beta and have/or have had no issues? (Up to and with/through this update)? I have eye sensitivity to bright sunlight and am in this camp, no issues (knock on wood). Maybe a poll?

Ski

I've always worn sunglasses during testing (except at night). No issues. I think I've gotten a total of 2 pay attention nags since 10.2 (last October). One was an intentional test to see how long I could look away for (about 10 sec), and the other was a legit nag where I was fumbling with the center screen for too long.

IMO, the cabin camera is LESS strict with sunglasses because unless it has the IR emitters, it can't see your eyes, so it falls back to head position, which is less accurate. You can keep your head straight and look at the screen, and the cabin camera won't know you're not looking forward. When greentheonly had the raw interpretation of the cabin camera overlaid on the video feed, it definitely had a "sunglasses" detected mode.

 

[nvx1977]

Gents, I think we need to talk about the two different types of nags.

1. Steering wheel induced nags. This type of nag is triggered by the car not sensing your hand on the steering wheel, and produces the "Apply Slight Turning Force to Wheel" nag, which is corrected by doing exactly what the warning says to do.

2. Cabin Camera induced nags. This type of nag is triggered by the cabin camera sensing that your eyes aren't on the road, and produces the "Please Pay Attention" nag, which is corrected by looking straight ahead at the road. Applying turning force to the wheel is NOT the corrective action for this nag. If the system is not able to correctly determine where you are looking, the nag will not clear itself, and will eventually end up with the red hands of death and a strike.

Also note that (obviously ) the 2nd type of nag requires the car to have a cabin camera installed and working. Non cabin camera cars are only capable of producing the steering wheel nag.

Please note the difference in wording of the nags, as that is the way to determine what type of corrective action is needed to remove the nag.

Of the 2 types of nag you mentioned, I believe the "pay attention" nag comes with 2 beeps, whereas the wheel torque nag doesn't make any noise initially.

Which brings up a 3rd type of nag (non penalizing), which is when AP loses confidence in itself and shows a "hands on wheel" notification. This one also does the two beeps. This one is not the fault of the driver at all but is sometimes confused as such.

 

[tmoz]

On that note. It got me thinking……what is the percentage of testers that regularly wear sunglasses testing FSD Beta and have/or have had no issues? (Up to and with/through this update)? I have eye sensitivity to bright sunlight and am in this camp, no issues (knock on wood). Maybe a poll?

Ski

Everyone in Arizona wears sunglasses while driving, so I've answered your poll for AZ. (-;

 

[Skione65]

I've always worn sunglasses during testing (except at night). No issues. I think I've gotten a total of 2 pay attention nags since 10.2 (last October). One was an intentional test to see how long I could look away for (about 10 sec), and the other was a legit nag where I was fumbling with the center screen for too long.

IMO, the cabin camera is LESS strict with sunglasses because unless it has the IR emitters, it can't see your eyes, so it falls back to head position, which is less accurate. You can keep your head straight and look at the screen, and the cabin camera won't know you're not looking forward. When greentheonly had the raw interpretation of the cabin camera overlaid on the video feed, it definitely had a "sunglasses" detected mode.

@novox77
Agreed on all fronts. I wear mine all the time excluding night. I’ve found the same. It’s less strict with them on as opposed to none at all. I’ve also tested the head straight but look at screen with eyes only and not turning the head. Same results. Appreciate the corroboration on data points!

Ski

 

[Skione65]

Of the 2 types of nag you mentioned, I believe the "pay attention" nag comes with 2 beeps, whereas the wheel torque nag doesn't make any noise initially.

Which brings up a 3rd type of nag (non penalizing), which is when AP loses confidence in itself and shows a "hands on wheel" notification. This one also does the two beeps. This one is not the fault of the driver at all but is sometimes confused as such.

What about the 4th type of nag when your wife tells you she won’t ride with Beta being tested?

Ski

 

[nvx1977]

What about the 4th type of nag when your wife tells you she won’t ride with Beta being tested?

Ski

definitely a penalizing nag.

 

[Yelobird]

Yes, I was wearing sunglasses. I have no way of knowing if that was the issue or not - it's never seemed to be an issue in the past and any driver monitoring system had better be able to deal with sunglasses but it's impossible to say. Like you said, maybe they changed the algorithm and it now has troubles?

The other thing I thought of was I did have my coffee in the car. I honestly can't remember if I had my coffee cup in my hand or not, but did it think I was holding my cell phone? Again, I drink coffee every morning on the way to work (like half the country does) and it's never been a problem in the past, but it's the only other thing I can think of.

On multiple occasions in the past I've had alerts pop up saying "pay attention to the road" despite the fact that I'm looking straight ahead telling me their algorithm is poor at best.

Appreciate the feedback. Totally understand how many will rightfully fall back to “but I used to do this with no issue” but that was my point about the system changing to offset the few trying to defeat the system. Originally there was no camera or phone monitor at all or minimal. I suspect they are dialing up the pay attention to offset. As for the coffee. Yep, that I have been caught with the “pay attention“ alert for holding my precious morning brew. More so then in the past. One would suspect Tesla monitors trends (YouTube) like stick an orange in the wheel and beat the system and tries to figure out a way to stop it. Same I seen with sunglasses to often. Sadly these over compensation systems have to effect all to correct for others.

 

[Yelobird]

What about the 4th type of nag when your wife tells you she won’t ride with Beta being tested?

Ski

Easy, tell her you want to check out the visualization of a pedestrian standing on the side of the road looks like.

 

[2101Guy]

Wrong thread.

Nope. Directly relates to post #860 within this thread. The post about top place to work for engineers. (Except now it will be several thousand fewer engineers)

 

[JulienW]

I got 10.12.2 Wednesday right before I had to make a trip to Savannah. Of course it was AP Stack for the trip down but as soon as I got into the city the traffic was bad (for Savannah). Beta took me down Abercorn and managed heavy traffic and changed lanes like a champ. Took me right to my destination with NO disengagements (a few accelerator interventions). I was blown away and by FAR the BEST drive I have ever experienced on Beta. When I got back in Beta was again flawless (except a couple of accelerator interventions) in getting me out of Savannah. It was like Beta was almost perfected and was soooooooo impressed.

Then I got back to ATL and it was like it was downgraded back to 10.11.2. Strange how different (near perfect) it drove in a midsize city but flubs every few blocks in ATL.

 

[Supcom]

Yes, I was wearing sunglasses. I have no way of knowing if that was the issue or not - it's never seemed to be an issue in the past and any driver monitoring system had better be able to deal with sunglasses but it's impossible to say. Like you said, maybe they changed the algorithm and it now has troubles?

The other thing I thought of was I did have my coffee in the car. I honestly can't remember if I had my coffee cup in my hand or not, but did it think I was holding my cell phone? Again, I drink coffee every morning on the way to work (like half the country does) and it's never been a problem in the past, but it's the only other thing I can think of.

On multiple occasions in the past I've had alerts pop up saying "pay attention to the road" despite the fact that I'm looking straight ahead telling me their algorithm is poor at best.

I had a false eye tracking strike a couple versions ago. The only thing I could determine was that I had the visor pulled down partway so that the edge was point toward me. I kept getting the warning, and would disengage FSD each time then reengage. But it didn't seem to help.

After I got the strike, I pushed the visor so it pointed toward the front of the car and was as far out of the camera view as possible. I've never had as much as a warning since then.

It didn't seem that the visor would block the camera, but who knows? But ever since then, I make sure to always have the visor pushed forward when I use it.

 

[sleepydoc]

Here's my "funny" FSD beta story for the day. I went for a drive and the wipers would not stop unless I disengaged FSD beta. They were only on intermittent.mode but it made the car undrivable. When I got to my destination, I took a look at the windshield and there were a few tiny bug splats around the front camera region. My destination had water and towels so I cleaned the windshield and that fixed the problem.

Is this FSD beta version's wiper mode that sensitive to bug splats? There were no messages about cameras being blocked or inoperable. This incident sent me on a search of the TMC forums regarding the best washer fluid, which IMO was inconclusive. Tesla recommends against fluids like RainX or those containing bug wash additives, so I'm at a loss. The blue stuff that's in there is weak on bug gunk.

I think the key is where the splats were. The windshield was totally clear except over the camera so as far as the car was concerned it was filthy. Conversely, the entire car can be filthy as long as the camera lenses are clear and FSD will be fine.

 

[nvx1977]

I think the key is where the splats were. The windshield was totally clear except over the camera so as far as the car was concerned it was filthy. Conversely, the entire car can be filthy as long as the camera lenses are clear and FSD will be fine.

I had a lot of splats on my windshield recently, and even off FSDb, my autowipers would engage. Just one wipe. But somewhat frequently, about once a drive. After a car wash, it stopped happening. I prolly had a splat over the camera and could have just wiped that section clean to stop the auto wipers from engaging. But was good to clean off the pine pollen too.

 

[Phlier]

Yes, I was wearing sunglasses.

A few versions ago, there was a bug with the cabin camera nag system, and it was believed that wearing sunglasses contributed to the false nags it was throwing. Tall guys wearing both baseball caps and sunglasses seemed to really freak it out the most. This bug affected all cabin camera equipped FSD Beta testers, regardless of vehicle model.

This bug resulted in Tesla upping the strikes limit to 5 in cabin camera vehicles, with there apparently being some cabin camera equipped Model S and X vehicles still stuck on the old 3 strikes and you're out system.

We now have reports of this bug affecting Model S and Model 3 cars.

It looks like we might have a full regression back to this bug.

I'm just over six feet, and this bug would get me whenever I wore sunglasses when driving. Here in the desert, if it's daylight hours, you're wearing sunglasses out of the need to.... you know... see.

Oh, btw.... I hope my discussion of the bug types didn't come across too harshly. After reading back on it, I didn't like the overall tone of it, but of course it was too late to edit it. The emphasis was placed in the spots I thought were important for guys to be able to make sure they were identifying the correct nag and corrective action, *not* to sound like a jerk. I really need to work on that... I guess my wife is right, darn it... I often come across as being a jerk when I really don't intend to. *sigh* I really hate it when my wife is right; she's impossible to live with afterward.

In particular, I didn't want @sleepydoc getting more false strikes, thinking you could prevent them by tugging on the wheel when that won't help for the cabin camera nag bug.

Hopefully, Tesla will reset the strike counter with the next update like they did the first time this bug hit.

@novox77 Thanks for the added info regarding the "Pay Attention" camera nag. The chimes in my car are intermittent, so often times I don't get them when I should. I really should have that looked at. I do get the warning sounds, ie, FCW, but the single and double chimes often don't sound.

On another note, the number of regressions we've seen in the various versions since last October is a bit alarming. Kinda seems like Tesla might need to have a meeting with their version control peeps.

 

[EVNow]

Nope. Directly relates to post #860 within this thread. The post about top place to work for engineers. (Except now it will be several thousand fewer engineers)

Those were OT, just like your post. You anyway live for making anti-Tesla threads - so make a separate thread.