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FSD Beta 10.69

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FSDb has paid no attention whatsoever to those elevated signs
Unclear if FSD Beta is using that information right now as I don't think the release notes have explicitly mentioned it, but at least at AI Day 2022 during the Simulation section, they showed examples of changing road connectivity with updated signs, road markings and traffic lights:

simulation turns.jpg


It would be kinda neat if the navigation display updated based on what the neural network predicts from what it sees, but that might be too messy and unnecessarily complicates that design.
 
No, My point is that V11 along with a couple of point releases should at the very least improve highway driving. Many of the V11 release notes speak to improvements for the highway. If the V11 update can't do any of that than it's a major fail.
@KArnold,
If V11 doesn't address several of the major problems with highway driving using a single stack how can that not be a fail? And I recognize it will take several point releases to get there.
 
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For those who got 10.69.25.1, could you try switching to a profile that doesn't have FSD enabled? Wife said she saw a message this morning asking her to "try full self-driving beta" but I can't seem to trigger it to show again. Maybe it's once per vehicle, and I have used FSD Beta on a different profile since updating.

I also tried creating a new profile, and I did get a message/tip in the bottom left corner for regen brakes limited and tapping on it opened a larger message in the center of the screen with a longer explanation as well as a toggle to directly turn on "Apply Brakes When Regenerative Braking Is Limited." Could also be that the message is only suggested after it detects some amount of Autopilot usage on that profile?
 
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The parallel lanes were an entirely separate street with multiple directions and that was displayed in the car visualization. Unless they way overfit the data, or they are using the maps as an input, there is no reason why the car would predict the adjacent parallel road to be there.

I am hoping that they didn’t overfit the data, so my conclusion is that the car is using maps as an input to the lane markings it displays for the user.

I am excited to see that they are using maps, but bummed that the incorporation of maps hasn’t fixed so many of the issues we are seeing.
 
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Unclear if FSD Beta is using that information right now as I don't think the release notes have explicitly mentioned it, but at least at AI Day 2022 during the Simulation section, they showed examples of changing road connectivity with updated signs, road markings and traffic lights:
I doubt they use such information for planning. For one thing, those kinds of signs are not always there .... so can't really rely on those.

I think they just use map metadata. The metadata being wrong (or lacking) is perhaps the single biggest issue with planning.
 
I doubt they use such information for planning. For one thing, those kinds of signs are not always there .... so can't really rely on those.

I think they just use map metadata. The metadata being wrong (or lacking) is perhaps the single biggest issue with planning.
Um. It’s clear that FSDb is always running with incomplete information and making the best of what it has. Not trying to be silly about it, but what the car can’t see it can’t react to, like a pedestrian “hiding” between two vehicles parked on the side of the road. When said pedestrian comes into view, then the car will react, no surprises there.

So.. if FSDb is looking at street signs, that’s just more data for the algorithm grist mill; without said street sign data, then it would presumably operate without said data. I mean, it’s not a requirement that those signs be there, just like it’s not a requirement that there be a painted center line on a secondary street.
 
it’s not a requirement that those signs be there, just like it’s not a requirement that there be a painted center line on a secondary street
Similarly, arrow road markings aren't always visible or clearly painted, but Tesla made the effort in 10.69.3 to improve lane predictions for intersections:
  • Added a new "road markings" module to the Vector Lanes neural network which improves lane topology error at intersections by 38.9%.
Seems like they were able to get quite a bit of improvement from that. Although handling signs has probably been lower priority as they aren't as common as road markings. There's probably more variety in how they look as well as the usual issues related to signs (like speed limits) of whether they're relevant to you and if they have special conditions.

Cities probably make the exceptional decision of whether a road sign is worthwhile to install, so that might actually make the signs more important when they're used because it could indicate there's something special / confusing / dangerous about the upcoming intersection. Here's an intersection that I believe Dirty Tesla has noticed FSD Beta having trouble in the past:

turn sign ann arbor 7th huron.jpg


Here the road continues past the cresting intersection slightly offset to the left. Without the sign or road markings, it wouldn't be unreasonable looking forwards with a building straight ahead to think the left lane is for turning left and going straight while the right lane is dedicated to right turns.
 
Similarly, arrow road markings aren't always visible or clearly painted, but Tesla made the effort in 10.69.3 to improve lane predictions for intersections:
  • Added a new "road markings" module to the Vector Lanes neural network which improves lane topology error at intersections by 38.9%.
Those are much more prevalent ?

Tesla basically has to prioritize based on prevalence and effort.
 
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there might be a left turn lane with left turn arrows painted all over it and the straight-ahead lane with straight and left-turn arrows painted on it. But when there's a long line of cars sitting on top of both lanes, the car's cameras can't see the arrows and, well, the car tends to get stuck
Yeah high density of traffic both reduces visibility and requires maneuvering among other vehicles. I've also noticed that FSD Beta's memory of arrow road markings that should have been visible even if just briefly isn't great when waiting in traffic at a red light sometimes causing it to think it must turn when it could have gone straight or vice versa.

As you suggest with potentially using signs that are more visible or improving the memory aspect could be possible solutions with varying difficulty to implement and potential benefit. This could be something Tesla has decided to defer as polish because while a wrong lane selection is annoying maybe requiring rerouting, it's not usually a safety issue.

As others have highlighted, a lot of poor lane selection is due to bad map data whether it's incomplete or wrong, and Tesla does seem well positioned to generate high quality lane count and turn lane data as FSD Beta is able to make those predictions on the fly but sometimes just a few seconds too late to be comfortable. So with this dynamic mapping approach, it could require rerouting the first time like an unfamiliar driver in a new area, and the experience could be more polished subsequent times. Combined with the rest of the fleet, it would be pretty rare for a "first time." One technical reason for something like this is Autopilot is already using map data even when it's bad, so having better map data doesn't require more compute from the FSD Computer to understand signs or have better memory.

Overall Tesla has been prioritizing safety and focusing on higher reach/impact changes with their limited resources (people and compute). It'll be interesting to see what Tesla focuses on when the incremental benefit to safety for some effort decreases to allow for more polish.
 
Yeah high density of traffic both reduces visibility and requires maneuvering among other vehicles. I've also noticed that FSD Beta's memory of arrow road markings that should have been visible even if just briefly isn't great when waiting in traffic at a red light sometimes causing it to think it must turn when it could have gone straight or vice versa.

As you suggest with potentially using signs that are more visible or improving the memory aspect could be possible solutions with varying difficulty to implement and potential benefit. This could be something Tesla has decided to defer as polish because while a wrong lane selection is annoying maybe requiring rerouting, it's not usually a safety issue.

As others have highlighted, a lot of poor lane selection is due to bad map data whether it's incomplete or wrong, and Tesla does seem well positioned to generate high quality lane count and turn lane data as FSD Beta is able to make those predictions on the fly but sometimes just a few seconds too late to be comfortable. So with this dynamic mapping approach, it could require rerouting the first time like an unfamiliar driver in a new area, and the experience could be more polished subsequent times. Combined with the rest of the fleet, it would be pretty rare for a "first time." One technical reason for something like this is Autopilot is already using map data even when it's bad, so having better map data doesn't require more compute from the FSD Computer to understand signs or have better memory.

Overall Tesla has been prioritizing safety and focusing on higher reach/impact changes with their limited resources (people and compute). It'll be interesting to see what Tesla focuses on when the incremental benefit to safety for some effort decreases to allow for more polish.
Until there is map data updating weekly there will be problems, once a year is not going to lead to success for navigation.
 
It dawned on me a couple of ways FSDb's occasional excess accel/decel might be tolerable to some drivers via any one or combination there of: 1) adjusting driver seat front higher (tilt), 2) firmly planting left foot on floor board, 3) applying forward pressure on steering wheel.

Of course too much of the latter case could disengage FSD.
I don’t think people’s main complaint is the hurling of their bodies around the passenger compartment.

I think it is more the deceleration issue, regardless of whether or not you are well braced.

The phantom braking and inability to stop smoothly is terrible and unbearable but it’s rarely particularly severe, throwing things around the cabin. Of course this can happen and dogs and other things can go flying, but much more numerous and minor slowdowns are the events that elicit the vast majority of complaints since they are quite unpleasant.

The emergency stops (I’ve never had one that I can recall) are just the icing on the cake.
 
I don’t think people’s main complaint is the hurling of their bodies around the passenger compartment.

I think it is more the deceleration issue, regardless of whether or not you are well braced.

The phantom braking and inability to stop smoothly is terrible and unbearable but it’s rarely particularly severe, throwing things around the cabin. Of course this can happen and dogs and other things can go flying, but much more numerous and minor slowdowns are the events that elicit the vast majority of complaints since they are quite unpleasant.

The emergency stops (I’ve never had one that I can recall) are just the icing on the cake.
My car absolutely throws things all over the cabin when accelerating around a corner and braking hard, for seemingly no reason. It can see the cars in front of me for 100’s of yards. No reason for this, Tesla! ETA: I also have to brace myself for impact. The more I drive 25.5, the worse it seems to be LOL.
 
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My car absolutely throws things all over the cabin when accelerating around a corner and braking hard, for seemingly no reason. It can see the cars in front of me for 100’s of yards. No reason for this, Tesla!
Yes, as I said, it does this.

I’ve never had it gun it around a corner but that may be because I never let it do anything stupid like pull out in front of people at the wrong time. Not sure. Never have experienced strong acceleration (greater than 0.4g, 7-second 0-60mph ) with FSDb. Plenty of slowdowns of course.
 
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My car absolutely throws things all over the cabin when accelerating around a corner and braking hard, for seemingly no reason. It can see the cars in front of me for 100’s of yards. No reason for this, Tesla! ETA: I also have to brace myself for impact. The more I drive 25.5, the worse it seems to be LOL.
I've seen this as well. Although the acceleration while turning seem to have gotten better (for me). The stopping is the problem, the car seems not to see brake lights in the distance or turn signals so it only reacts, belatedly, to high rates of closure on stopped cars.
 
I rode with FSDb quite a bit today on rural roads. Mostly 2-lane highways with FSDb, but some with NOA. Self-driving at 80 mph on a 2-lane road is a special kind of Texas thing.

One thing that I had not noticed until now was when my car was running NOA and came to a turn onto a county road, the car switched to FSDb as it slowed for the turn. This was very good and the car was able to make a smooth turn with no issues.

I don't know when this started (maybe forever?), but it certainly worked well. Of course, when (if?) V11 comes along, it will be moot. but that may be a while yet...
 
Could a SF Bay Area FSDb driver help me with a question which came up in another thread.

Does an FSDb car with switch to standard AutoPilot (and visualization) on the SF Bay Bridge, or does it use FSDb on the bridge? The road is I-80, and limited access, but I'm not clear on which road features matter in the car deciding if FSDb is available.

Thanks,
SW