FSD Beta 10.69

[PACEMD]

Well, I just gotta tell you, if FSDb can't play nice with trains it ain't got no kinda future in country music, none atall, no sir, it don't........I'll tell you that right now.........

I can't hear that Tesla a-comin'
It may be rollin' 'round the bend,
But I ain't seen no sunshine,
Since, I don't know when.........

 

[scottf200]

Well, it visualized the blinking red crossing lights as traffic lights (like it has forever), and displayed the train as a bunch of semi trucks back to back. So who knows what it actually stopped for.

It is pretty shocking / disappointing that it does understand basic trains ... since they are supposed to have the ability to set triggers of visuals + events for training. That is how many Tesla's have seen trains crossings with actual trains on them even in the last few months. With the number of Tesla's out there it must be 100s. Seems like they could train on those *consistent* and simple shapes.

 

[sleepydoc]

Surprised - may be, but getting off guard, not really.

Any kind of intersection can result in a problem and a driver can't be caught off-guard. Same with pedestrians, merging vehicles, school zone, round abouts ...

Not sure what your point is - railroad crossings are incredibly common (probably more common than roundabouts,) and a source of many accidents and injuries. Not recognizing a train is worse than failing to recognize a red light or failing to see a car in front of you.

 

[JulienW]

Let's not act like trains/railroad crossings are the ONE thing Tesla needs learn. How about a few from a near endless list.

• Emergency vehicles
• School zones
• Construction sites
• Detour signs
• People directing traffic
• People signaling you to go with their headlights or hands
• Pot holes
• Temporary speed limit signs
• No Right Turn on Red
• Road Closed signs
• Etc...........

 

[old pilot]

Let's not act like trains/railroad crossings are the ONE thing Tesla needs learn. How about a few from a near endless list.

• Emergency vehicles
• School zones
• Construction sites
• Detour signs
• People directing traffic
• People signaling you to go with their headlights or hands
• Pot holes
• Temporary speed limit signs
• No Right Turn on Red
• Road Closed signs
• Etc...........

You are quite correct about the shortcomings of this system and I was not, nor do I think I implied that railroad crossings were the only problem. All I was hoping to highlight was that those who are new to the FSD system should be made aware of what it will and will not do. It may be simpler to just list what it is programed to do (with a caveat that it may not do these things all the time) and state everything else is the responsibility of the human driver.

 

[EVNow]

Not sure what your point is - railroad crossings are incredibly common (probably more common than roundabouts,) and a source of many accidents and injuries. Not recognizing a train is worse than failing to recognize a red light or failing to see a car in front of you.

So are right turns and left turns and traffic lights.

Have to be very vigilant at all those. There is zero room for complacency. No room for getting caught off-guard.

That is my point.

 

[aronth5]

Let's not act like trains/railroad crossings are the ONE thing Tesla needs learn. How about a few from a near endless list.

• Emergency vehicles
• School zones
• Construction sites
• Detour signs
• People directing traffic
• People signaling you to go with their headlights or hands
• Pot holes
• Temporary speed limit signs
• No Right Turn on Red
• Road Closed signs
• Etc...........

Good list with most on my top 10. But you needed a lot more dots after Etc.

 

[Joboo7777]

You are quite correct about the shortcomings of this system and I was not, nor do I think I implied that railroad crossings were the only problem. All I was hoping to highlight was that those who are new to the FSD system should be made aware of what it will and will not do. It may be simpler to just list what it is programed to do (with a caveat that it may not do these things all the time) and state everything else is the responsibility of the human driver.

Not going to happen. Unfortunately Tesla(or any other large organization) would ever document this. It exposes them to some level of liability that could be used to facilitate legal action.

 

[Gbills]

Not going to happen. Unfortunately Tesla(or any other large organization) would ever document this. It exposes them to some level of liability that could be used to facilitate legal action.

Drug companies use disclaimer’s all the time.

 

[D Good]

I cannot believe Elon ever thought driving was an easy problem.

 

[Joboo7777]

Drug companies use disclaimer’s all the time.

For production medications they certainly do. Not for beta products

 

[JulienW]

Drug companies use disclaimer’s all the time.

...but in Tesla's case it would be impossible to list all the situations it can't or might not be able to handle correctly. The known knows and known unknowns list would be millions of words long and the unknown unknowns are.....well unknown and nearly ∞.

 

[JulienW]

I cannot believe Elon ever thought driving was an easy problem.

It's just like health care or peace in the Middle East. Who would have thought it was so hard?......other than everyone.

 

[PACEMD]

It's just like health care or peace in the Middle East. Who would have thought it was so hard?......other than everyone.

A Rabbi and an Imam both were allowed to ask God one question. They both asked the same thing......."Will there be peace in the Middle East?" God replied......."Yes. There will be peace in the Middle East. But not in my lifetime"......

 

[CharleyBC]

...but in Tesla's case it would be impossible to list all the situations it can't or might not be able to handle correctly. The known knows and known unknowns list would be millions of words long and the unknown unknowns are.....well unknown and nearly ∞.

I actually think Tesla has a pretty good--though not detailed at all--disclaimer in the beta agreement. As I recall it approximately says the software may do the dumbest thing at the worst possible moment.

 

[Dewg]

This again comes down to two camps - those that think the Tesla is L4 and expect it to drive for them in any/all situations, and those that think the car is an L2 driver assist feature and maintain control at all times.

Tesla has pointed out, in both website ordering language, onscreen prompts when engaging the systems, and in disclaimer language when enabling the systems, that the system is the latter, an L2 driver assist. However, a product demonstration video and the CEO through Twitter, have indicated that the system will be equivalent to L4, causing confusion and resentment.

The reality is that the system is L2. That is fact, and does not change based on the comments from anyone on Twitter. People can hold their breath, jump up and down, and rend their clothes all they want - the car is still L2, and should be driven as L2. Engage it, and when it misbehaves, disengage it. Engage it, and when it's entering an area that may cause issues, disengage it (such as school zones, school busses with red flashing lights, construction zones with cones or lane shifting, intersections with police controlling traffic, etc.).

Entering a reality warping field where you get mad because the car didn't handle a situation properly, and using Twitter comments to enforce your anger doesn't help you at all. In fact, you may be decreasing the safety of the system by trying to have the car drive in places where it's not confident or trained to do so.

Here are some tips to help you use the system:

1. Plan a route, for example from your house to your work. Use the ADAS functions to drive for you, preferably with low traffic conditions (early morning or late evening). Intervene when necessary, and make mental notes where these occurred.
2. Drive this route at various times with various traffic conditions, and make notes where interventions were needed. You'll get more confident on where/when you need to take over for the car.
3. Test this route when each software update is released by starting at #1 and seeing if there is improvement, such as smoother turns or more confident lane selection, and most importantly, fewer interventions required.

I know that my car does not handle some speed changes when moving from feeder streets into residential neighborhoods, so I manually wheel down the speed limit when I'm approaching those intersections so that it enters the residential streets at the correct speed. Every update, I test to see if that has been resolved, and if it has not, I continue wheeling down the speed. I also know that my car does not handle U-turns well, so any route that requires a U-turn, I handle manually and then re-engage the system. However, I test the U-turn feature after an update on a non-busy road to see if it's been improved.

Knowing this is an L2 system, and driving according is the key to a less stressful experience. If I'm approaching a train track, and the gates comes down, or the red lights start flashing, I'm vigilant and prepare to take over if the car doesn't handle it properly. Then I make a note that I'll need to intervene in the future in that scenario. My thoughts at that moment would be "Woah, the car didn't handle that well. Next time I'll be more prepared in advance." I don't think "OMG - the car just tried to kill me - why the hell can't it handle this simple thing?!?"

I'm in control - I'm the driver - the car is just assisting me.

 

[aronth5]

This again comes down to two camps - those that think the Tesla is L4 and expect it to drive for them in any/all situations, and those that think the car is an L2 driver assist feature and maintain control at all times.

Tesla has pointed out, in both website ordering language, onscreen prompts when engaging the systems, and in disclaimer language when enabling the systems, that the system is the latter, an L2 driver assist. However, a product demonstration video and the CEO through Twitter, have indicated that the system will be equivalent to L4, causing confusion and resentment.

The reality is that the system is L2. That is fact, and does not change based on the comments from anyone on Twitter. People can hold their breath, jump up and down, and rend their clothes all they want - the car is still L2, and should be driven as L2. Engage it, and when it misbehaves, disengage it. Engage it, and when it's entering an area that may cause issues, disengage it (such as school zones, school busses with red flashing lights, construction zones with cones or lane shifting, intersections with police controlling traffic, etc.).

I'm in a different camp. I don't believe Tesla can reach L4 with current hardware. My goal is level 3 where FSD is smart enough to hand off FSD to the driver. This is what Mercedes is touting and "if" they achieve L3 with a driver hand off Tesla may decide they need the same to stay competitive in the controlled access highway space.

 

[Dewg]

I'm in a different camp. I don't believe Tesla can reach L4 with current hardware. My goal is level 3 where FSD is smart enough to hand off FSD to the driver. This is what Mercedes is touting and "if" they achieve L3 with a driver hand off Tesla may decide they need the same to stay competitive in the controlled access highway space.

That's a great goal, and I agree with that goal and your thoughts on it. However, the car is still L2 today. Just make sure you treat it as such and not as L3.

 

[VanFriscia]

I'm in control - I'm the driver - the car is just assisting me.

So basically, you're Tim the Toolman Taylor and FSDb is your assistant Al Borland

 

[Reddy Kilowatt]

I’m on 10.69.25.2 and the software didn’t want to stop for a train with lights and crossing arms on both sides. Anyone having the same problem ? The attached picture was taken after I applied the brakes.

No, in fact mine stopped but then it would not start. there was no green light to tell the car to go. This was my case several versions ago.