FSD Beta v11.x

willow_hiller · Mar 29, 2023

JB47394 said:
Impressive drive by DirtyTesla. I wonder if the car did so well because of the overcast. Do shadows (especially long ones near sunrise and sunset) erode FSD's confidence?

Timestamp 10:09 is another small piece of anecdotal evidence that 11.3.3 has some mechanism for considering No Right On Red signs:

Unclear at this point whether it's actually reading signs or using map data. But it was a very deliberate wait for green on right turn.

kriskros91 · Mar 29, 2023

Not affiliated at all with this channel but I appreciate the candid nature of the video showcasing "FSD beta fails" on 11.3.3. For those that are out there and are wondering what to expect.

I also watched the Dirty Tesla video and admit that it looked absolutely amazing in that video. Made me almost wonder about "overfitting" for the Ann Arbor region that he is in since he's a very prominent YouTuber posting videos of every drive. But probably not since that's a large area to overfit to.

JB47394 · Mar 29, 2023

kriskros91 said:
Made me almost wonder about "overfitting" for the Ann Arbor region that he is in since he's a very prominent YouTuber posting videos of every drive.

Yes, I wonder the same.

Separately, I had asked in a different thread if people would like the ability to direct FSD by use of turn signals instead of giving it a destination; a kind of hybrid control system. I decided to try something simple with 11.3.3 - I indicated for a right-turn lane in a residential area to see what it would do. My recollection of 10.69 was that the car would enter the turn lane and then try to go straight. The new stuff completed the turn. I saw the ribbon show a right turn once I was in the right turn lane.

Then I tried it again for a left turn lane. The car got over, but so slowly that I had to brake hard so that I wouldn't cruise into the intersection at speed. Things were happening so fast that I didn't have time to see what the ribbon was showing. I also don't recall if the turn signal stayed on once I was in the left turn lane. Oh for voice prompts.

I didn't try to get it to turn at a side street without a turn lane.

Dewg · Mar 29, 2023

nvx1977 said:
Now, you take that kind of driving culture, and then you watch a Dirty Tesla video in calm, serene Ann Arbor MI, where going exactly the speed limit is acceptable, and suddenly FSDb performance there is completely irrelevant to my driving locale. It's great to see progress there, but it's nowhere near ready to perform here.

I really need to understand this, because it's referenced frequently by many people on TMC. The notion that traveling at the speed limit is dangerous, rude, and will result in honking, road-rage, etc.

There are always going to be impatient people, who drive like maniacs and will honk if you come to a complete stop at a stop sign, but they are the exception. This notion that driving the speed limit, or coming to a complete stop, is actually dangerous is what fascinates me.

If it is legit dangerous to drive the speed limit, why is the speed limit in that area so slow? Why haven't people gone to their local officials and had the speed limit increased? Do the local officials even know it's dangerous? If they do, what is their rationale for not increasing the speed limit? If they don't know, then why are people complaining about it, without actually doing anything about it?

PVia · Mar 29, 2023

Dewg said:
I really need to understand this, because it's referenced frequently by many people on TMC. The notion that traveling at the speed limit is dangerous, rude, and will result in honking, road-rage, etc.

Yeah, me too...

But living in SoCal (as you do as well, Dewg) it always amazes me at the speed driven on the freeways and the general nature of driving skills (or non-skills). My theory is that there are a huge amount of drivers who were raised on video games and take that experience out on the road with them. I've already written about the amount of tailgaters (one or two car lengths) at 72+ mph. I've seen the general speed of freeways climb from about 72-ish maybe 10 years ago to the current 80-85 mph...and drivers are pissed if you're not doing the same.

I refuse to be bullied if I'm at the speed limit.

And as for "zipper merges" out here...it's more like "I am not letting you in ever". Ten cars or more can easily pass you as you're trying to enter the freeway, and if you have your turn signal on, forget it. It's an invitation to especially not let you merge.

kriskros91 · Mar 29, 2023

Dewg said:
I really need to understand this, because it's referenced frequently by many people on TMC. The notion that traveling at the speed limit is dangerous, rude, and will result in honking, road-rage, etc.

There are always going to be impatient people, who drive like maniacs and will honk if you come to a complete stop at a stop sign, but they are the exception. This notion that driving the speed limit, or coming to a complete stop, is actually dangerous is what fascinates me.

If it is legit dangerous to drive the speed limit, why is the speed limit in that area so slow? Why haven't people gone to their local officials and had the speed limit increased? Do the local officials even know it's dangerous? If they do, what is their rationale for not increasing the speed limit? If they don't know, then why are people complaining about it, without actually doing anything about it?

I think you are exactly right with your statements and rhetorical questions. People don't like to be perceived as "rude" so they drive in a way that is similar to those around them, even if that means bending/breaking the actual rules. Not stopping all the way at stops or red lights, going 5-10 MPH over the speed limit, etc are all examples of this behavior. I can say with confidence that I have never been honked at for going the speed limit in an area or stopping fully at a stop sign. Now there is an extreme of that obviously - you are not meant to stop and spend a full 5 seconds in a clear intersection contemplating whether you should go while the car behind you waits. But there are reasonable expectations for the proper letter of the law and interpretation of that.

Driving a robotaxi should be as close to the letter of the law as possible in my mind. Once more people drive robotaxis maybe they will realize they don't need to bend the rules anymore.

Dewg · Mar 29, 2023

PVia said:
Yeah, me too...

But living in SoCal (as you do as well, Dewg) it always amazes me at the speed driven on the freeways and the general nature of driving skills (or non-skills). My theory is that there are a huge amount of drivers who were raised on video games and take that experience out on the road with them. I've already written about the amount of tailgaters (one or two car lengths) at 72+ mph. I've seen the general speed of freeways climb from about 72-ish maybe 10 years ago to the current 80-85 mph...and drivers are pissed if you're not doing the same.

I refuse to be bullied if I'm at the speed limit.

And as for "zipper merges" out here...it's more like "I am not letting you in ever". Ten cars or more can easily pass you as you're trying to enter the freeway, and if you have your turn signal on, forget it. It's an invitation to especially not let you merge.

Freeways are a different kettle of fish. I can understand the need to speed a bit there, like you mentioned, 72-75 seems normal. I usually drive in that range. City streets is what's got me scratching my head.

Gilliland · Mar 29, 2023

Dewg said:
If it is legit dangerous to drive the speed limit, why is the speed limit in that area so slow? Why haven't people gone to their local officials and had the speed limit increased? Do the local officials even know it's dangerous? If they do, what is their rationale for not increasing the speed limit? If they don't know, then why are people complaining about it, without actually doing anything about it?

It's cultural. Years of experience have taught us that if we drive the speed limit, everyone else on the road is going to pass us. And the same years of experience have taught us that if we drive more than (roughly) 10% over the speed limit, we risk getting ticketed. So that defines our range.

The safest speed to drive is the same speed that everyone around you is driving. If you drive too fast and seem to always be trying to get around others, that is (relatively) dangerous. If you drive too slow, and it seems that everyone else is trying to get around you, that, too, is dangerous.

Dewg · Mar 29, 2023

Gilliland said:
The safest speed to drive is the same speed that everyone around you is driving. If you drive too fast and seem to always be trying to get around others, that is (relatively) dangerous. If you drive too slow, and it seems that everyone else is trying to get around you, that, too, is dangerous.

I hear this one too, but I can't find authoritative support for the argument. I read individual opinions, and some traffic lawyer sites in favor, but no government, law enforcement, or academic studies supporting it.

To me it seems like an extension of "mob mentality", which is the psychological notion that doing something wrong is okay if others are doing it too. One guy decides to drive 65 in a 45 zone, and as long as a few others join him, it's suddenly safe to drive 65 as that's the flow of traffic at that moment. My question is: why is the speed limit on that street 45? There must be a reason, like its proximity to residential streets where pedestrian traffic is probable. Or blind intersections where slower cars might be merging onto the street. Or perhaps there is a statistical history of collisions on that street, so the limit was set to reduce injury.

Another way to ask the question: why do we know better than the officials?

nvx1977 · Mar 29, 2023

Dewg said:
I really need to understand this, because it's referenced frequently by many people on TMC. The notion that traveling at the speed limit is dangerous, rude, and will result in honking, road-rage, etc.

There are always going to be impatient people, who drive like maniacs and will honk if you come to a complete stop at a stop sign, but they are the exception. This notion that driving the speed limit, or coming to a complete stop, is actually dangerous is what fascinates me.

If it is legit dangerous to drive the speed limit, why is the speed limit in that area so slow? Why haven't people gone to their local officials and had the speed limit increased? Do the local officials even know it's dangerous? If they do, what is their rationale for not increasing the speed limit? If they don't know, then why are people complaining about it, without actually doing anything about it?

I grew up in the suburbs of Atlanta, and I learned how to drive there (got my permit and license). It was perfectly acceptable to drive the speed limit in metro Atlanta. Sure you have impatient people too, but mostly they hold it in and just grumble because honking is just so rude. So I've experienced both worlds.

I recognize that Boston driving does not represent the vast majority of the country's driving culture, which in my travels have revealed that most places are very courteous. The sh*ttiness of our road design is what creates this aggressive driving behavior. The roads, signs, and markings don't give you enough guidance on right of way, so you just fight for it. And it actually works (from an accident avoidance standpoint). And the traffic this causes creates impatience, which causes speeding. And I would say speeding is very much not enforced strictly here in Boston metro compared to Atlanta. I remember in a very residential 4-way stop in the Atlanta burbs, there was almost always a cop camped out for rolling stops. And they always ticketed. It feels like the cops here in Boston metro are equally frustrated at the roads, so they sympathize with some of the bad behavior. When traffic is so bad, the chance of a severe accident is low (low speeds), so the consequence of a traffic violation is low. That is my theory why I don't see more ticketing happening. The road conditions are sh*tty enough. Why make people's lives more miserable by nitpicking little traffic violations that have little impact.

Near me, there's a local 2-lane double yellow road with a posted speed limit of 35mph. People regularly go 50+ on it because it is fairly straight and has good visibility. It's marked 35 because there are tons of residential cross roads on it; therefore the double yellow never changes to give you an opportunity to pass someone slow. In my 7 years driving this road, I have NEVER seen a cop set up a speed trap. It would be easy to do and easy revenue. If you go 35mph on this road, you will get honked at. Or you will be passed illegally. More likely both.

That is why for people who have never experienced aggressive driving culture, they will have a harder time accepting how far away we are from autonomous driving in these regions. Dirty Tesla can accept a super slow creeping turn because there's no consequence for it. Here, people will be leaning on their horn and giving you the finger as they go around you. Sure you can turn a blind eye to that kind of behavior, but it's easier to just go with the flow. FSDb does not go with the flow around here.

-edit-
also to clarify: i never said going the speed limit was dangerous. people throw that word around too loosely IMO. Slower is always safer. We're talking about driving culture and how driving the speed limit is annoying and unacceptable in certain (limited) regions.

nvx1977 · Mar 29, 2023

I will say that one thing I leverage FSD for is when I come upon a super slow car. At that point, I engage FSDb and just don't think about it. The people behind me are fuming because now they have to pass 2 slow cars. but F em. I'm relaxed and chill. I would love for autonomy to solve all these human behavioral problems. can't come soon enough.

Dewg · Mar 29, 2023

nvx1977 said:
Near me, there's a local 2-lane double yellow road with a posted speed limit of 35mph. People regularly go 50+ on it because it is fairly straight and has good visibility. It's marked 35 because there are tons of residential cross roads on it; therefore the double yellow never changes to give you an opportunity to pass someone slow. In my 7 years driving this road, I have NEVER seen a cop set up a speed trap. It would be easy to do and easy revenue. If you go 35mph on this road, you will get honked at. Or you will be passed illegally. More likely both

Thanks for that explanation. I can understand why now. In your example above, the limit is 35 probably because there is a higher likelihood that pedestrian traffic will be present due to residential streets intersecting the main street. Since most people drive 50+, why haven't the local officials increased the limit? Has anyone brought it up to them?

Since L3+ will adhere to the legal traffic laws, and is advancing rapidly, one of two things needs to change. Either L3 needs to be regulated in such a way to allow it to break traffic laws, or the limits will need to be increased substantially where traffic routinely breaks it. The third option is to modify driving culture to accept limits, which seems unlikely.

AlanSubie4Life · Mar 29, 2023

Dewg said:
Since most people drive 50+, why haven't the local officials increased the limit? Has anyone brought it up to them?

The usual reason is because the people living there don’t want the limit increased! That would be the worst possible outcome. In California, that change also requires a traffic study (85% rule) for the limit to be enforceable. California speed trap law (this would be an unjustified speed limit trap).

Though that may change soon. Not sure.

You can see the natural outcome: a low speed limit, with the vast majority of drivers driving at a very reasonable speed well over the limit, while the neighborhood is happy to leave the limit as is, to ensure that people don’t drive marginally faster still. And in California no cops, since enforcing the low limit is illegal.

nvx1977 · Mar 29, 2023

@Dewg: just now I was searching for a news headline I read about a few years back about native Boston drivers intentionally terrorizing any cars with out-of-state plates. During my search, I stumbled upon this amazing gem of an article, written in freaking 1985, explaining why the driving is so bad here in Boston. I'm glad to see the article corroborated pretty much everything I've written in this thread. Sad to see things have not improved since the 80s.

Stop!: An Analysis of Boston Driving - Alfie Kohn

Stop!: An Analysis of Boston Driving

www.alfiekohn.org

It's a hilarious article, esp for someone like me who can relate. But if it's tl;dr, then at least read this reason (quoted below) why Boston drivers are the way they are (listed as reason #5 in the article). I wasn't always a Boston Driver. I was a courteous driver from the suburbs of Atlanta. I'm not sorry for driving aggressively where it's expected. I can turn it off and on at will, and I think there's value to knowing how to be aggressive when you need to be (like tourists driving to Boston or NYC).

5. The Self-Perpetuating System. You arrive in Boston making frequent use of your turn signal, stopping on red, letting pedestrians cross, and generally driving as if your mother or a policeman were sitting next to you. But something happens. You defer to cars with the right-of-way and you hear angry honks from behind you. No one lets you cut in when you ask (or even meets your eyes so that you can ask), so you just do it. You hit the accelerator, just clearing the intersection as the light turns red; glancing in your rearview mirror, you see that three cars got through after you. You begin to adopt the Type A behavior of everyone around you. You adopt offensive behaviors so as to avoid being taken advantage of.

In short, you become a Boston Driver.

The other reasons:

1) irrational roads
2) too many drivers
3) deficient signs and signals (MA ranked 52 out of 52)
4) inadequate enforcement

Dewg · Mar 29, 2023

AlanSubie4Life said:
You can see the natural outcome: a low speed limit, with the vast majority of drivers driving at a very reasonable speed well over the limit, while the neighborhood is happy to leave the limit as is, to ensure that people don’t drive marginally faster still. And in California no cops, since enforcing the limit is illegal.

This is easy to solve. Eliminate speed limits. If everyone (85% or more) just drives whatever speed they feel comfortable driving, why have limits at all? Police can simply issue citations for unsafe speeds if they feel, in their professional judgement the speed was unsafe.

AlanSubie4Life · Mar 29, 2023

Dewg said:
This is easy to solve. Eliminate speed limits. If everyone (85% or more) just drives whatever speed they feel comfortable driving, why have limits at all? Police can simply issue citations for unsafe speeds if they feel, in their professional judgement the speed was unsafe.

This seems like a poor solution. Having a mechanism for allowing posting of enforceable limits seems important. And it is good to have data-driven limits especially for the higher speed roads, otherwise it is just kind of arbitrary.

Anyway this is off topic. I’m done. You asked a question and I think that was the correct answer.

I believe in California the basic rule still applies, so would already cover the situation where the speed is unsafe for the conditions.

Dewg said:
I'll disagree with your point that having a mechanism for allowing posting of enforceable limits, when enforcing those limits is illegal, seems pointless.

To avoid further posts I will answer what you said below, by quoting here.

Enforcing the limits IS legal. They just have to be justified! That is the mechanism. I said they were enforceable limits…which means they can be enforced.

Dewg · Mar 29, 2023

nvx1977 said:
@Dewg: just now I was searching for a news headline I read about a few years back about native Boston drivers intentionally terrorizing any cars with out-of-state plates. During my search, I stumbled upon this amazing gem of an article, written in freaking 1985, explaining why the driving is so bad here in Boston. I'm glad to see the article corroborated pretty much everything I've written in this thread. Sad to see things have not improved since the 80s.

Stop!: An Analysis of Boston Driving - Alfie Kohn

Stop!: An Analysis of Boston Driving

www.alfiekohn.org

It's a hilarious article, esp for someone like me who can relate. But if it's tl;dr, then at least read this reason (quoted below) why Boston drivers are the way they are (listed as reason #5 in the article). I wasn't always a Boston Driver. I was a courteous driver from the suburbs of Atlanta. I'm not sorry for driving aggressively where it's expected. I can turn it off and on at will, and I think there's value to knowing how to be aggressive when you need to be (like tourists driving to Boston or NYC).

The other reasons:

1) irrational roads
2) too many drivers
3) deficient signs and signals (MA ranked 52 out of 52)
4) inadequate enforcement

Thanks for the article and summary. I chuckled when I read it. Boy are Bostonians in for a treat when Waymo comes to town, or more and more car manufacturers with advanced ADAS systems get on the roads there.

nvx1977 · Mar 29, 2023

Dewg said:
Thanks for that explanation. I can understand why now. In your example above, the limit is 35 probably because there is a higher likelihood that pedestrian traffic will be present due to residential streets intersecting the main street. Since most people drive 50+, why haven't the local officials increased the limit? Has anyone brought it up to them?

I have never seen a pedestrian on this road. No, the slow speed limit is to help cars pull out onto this main road from their residential street. There are no sidewalks anywhere.

Dewg said:
Thanks for the article and summary. I chuckled when I read it. Boy are Bostonians in for a treat when Waymo comes to town, or more and more car manufacturers with advanced ADAS systems get on the roads there.

It will be a long while before the L4 companies attempt Boston. I'd wager it's the last major city they'd attempt. Any modern city with a sensible grid design will take precedence.

MP3Mike · Mar 29, 2023

nvx1977 said:
You hit the accelerator, just clearing the intersection as the light turns red; glancing in your rearview mirror, you see that three cars got through after you.

I've been rear ended three times for stopping at a red light. All three people said that they assumed that I would run the red light. (Maybe those people were Boston transplants...)

I still stop at red lights... I will not be bullied into becoming a "Boston Driver".

Dewg · Mar 29, 2023

AlanSubie4Life said:
This seems like a poor solution. Having a mechanism for allowing posting of enforceable limits seems important. And it is good to have data-driven limits especially for the higher speed roads, otherwise it is just kind of arbitrary.

Anyway this is off topic. I’m done. You asked a question and I think that was the correct answer.

Apologies for taking it off topic. I'll disagree with your point that having a mechanism for allowing posting of enforceable limits, when enforcing those limits is illegal, seems pointless.

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