FSD Beta v11.x

The next big milestone for FSD is 11. It is a significant upgrade and fundamental changes to several parts of the FSD stack including totally new way to train the perception NN.

From AI day and Lex Fridman interview we have a good sense of what might be included.

- Object permanence both temporal and spatial
- Moving from “bag of points” to objects in NN
- Creating a 3D vector representation of the environment all in NN
- Planner optimization using NN / Monte Carlo Tree Search (MCTS)
- Change from processed images to “photon count” / raw image
- Change from single image perception to surround video
- Merging of city, highway and parking lot stacks a.k.a. Single Stack

Lex Fridman Interview of Elon. Starting with FSD related topics.

Here is a detailed explanation of Beta 11 in "layman's language" by James Douma, interview done after Lex Podcast.

Here is the AI Day explanation by in 4 parts.

Deep Understanding Tesla FSD Part 1: HydraNet

From Theory to Reality, Analyze the Evolution of Tesla Full Self-Driving

saneryee-studio.medium.com

Here is a useful blog post asking a few questions to Tesla about AI day. The useful part comes in comparison of Tesla's methods with Waymo and others (detailed papers linked).

Twelve Questions about Tesla Autopilot Technologies Exposed at 2021 AI Day

On Aug. 19 2021, Telsa held an AI day , exposing more technologies about Autopilot , from perception, planning, data labeling, simulation…

yuhuang-63908.medium.com

 

[Sharps97]

Tried it. Maybe 5% smoother lane changes on the highway. Otherwise still very underfit for southeastern PA. I think they are overfitting CA, TX, and popular YouTube routes.

Issues still include not staying between the lines for sharper turns, not understanding the appropriate level of speed for sharper curves, poor lane selection and inability to commit to turning left or right at traffic lights when it is clear to go.

Also gave auto park a try and it gave up immediately so that is still a party gimmick except that it is far worse than before.

At this point I think we will be limited to maybe low single digit percentage improvements with the big change coming from HW4 assuming it has more and better placed cameras and some non visual sensor support.

 

[TK211X]

Maybe there is a 3 day roll pattern alternating between FSDb and Wide.

This would mean the next dump for FSDb should be this Thursday?

I just want my 11.3.5

 

[Iain]

Quick follow up. Looks like I may have gotten Beta back. Haven't driven yet but all the settings are back. Of course I don't see a path to V11 now since it looks like either everyone (but me) has got it or they have stoped rolling out.

View attachment 924798

You will get it. I was in the original 100% rollout and I’m still on 10.69 along with many others. It sucks but We will get it.

 

[jabloomf1230]

Seems like Tesla is doing some sort of A/B test with 11.3.3 and 11.3.4

It looks like they both may be dead as all new 11.3.x releases have ceased. There are still a bunch of cars (15-20%) stuck on the 10.69 branch.

 

[Ramphex]

Seems like Tesla is doing some sort of A/B test with 11.3.3 and 11.3.4

Would be cool if we knew anything at all about what they’re doing…. Ever….

 

[0mpg]

im stuck on 10.69 still.

 

[Mardak]

Put your foot on the accelerator and disengage the system with the stalk or yoke. When prompted for the reason say "phantom braking".

Thanks. Maybe this is getting too much gaming the system or maybe Tesla doesn't even make a distinction, but theoretically the 3 types of disengagements could be generally ranked by likelihood of safety issue:

1. braking
2. steering
3. stalk

Where maybe Tesla intentionally isn't asking about interventions like manual turn signal and accelerator overrides (but probably collects telemetry via their Autopilot Trip Logs). So if say average FSD Beta 11.x users aren't doing these extra steps to specially report phantom braking, it would probably be relatively under-represented in Tesla's aggregate metrics and lack of other details doesn't really tell Tesla new information.

One potential prioritization and filtering step for Tesla to process all these voice notes is to find frequently reported unsafe behaviors?

 

[Supcom]

From my testing, 11.3.4 has regressed in making left and right turns from a stop sign. The car has become very timid and hesitates for no apparent reason while making these maneuvers, even when there is good visibility and no traffic in the area.

In addition, the car occasionally stops when making a left turn at an intersection where it has no stop sign even though there is no traffic present.

It's like the car is taking much too long to determine that not seeing any cars means that there are no cars in these situations.

Another quirk, which may be just a visualization thing, is that, on two lane high-speed roads with shoulders, as ego gets close to an oncoming vehicle, the display positions the oncoming vehicle about halfway into the shoulder lane.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

From my testing, 11.3.4 has regressed in making left and right turns from a stop sign. The car has become very timid and hesitates for no apparent reason while making these maneuvers, even when there is good visibility and no traffic in the area.

Yes, it's very bad now. In fact, FSD Beta is unusable in residential areas. It's simply too slow to use. (This was also the case with 10.69 to be clear though it is probably a bit worse now.)

1) It stops at the stop line, as legally required (unfortunately it doesn't cheat and stop past the stop line), extremely slowly with a very slow roll up to it.
2) It then creeps slowly for visibility, often stopping again.
3) Then it goes. Sometimes it stops again or hesitates.

In addition, the car occasionally stops when making a left turn at an intersection where it has no stop sign even though there is no traffic present.

Yes, another problem is that in residential areas even making right turns at intersections without stop signs, it stops. This is not new though it is worse now because the stopping is overall slower.


But yes, meant to report that FSD Beta 11.3.4 is unusable in residential areas due to lack of typical human-like behavior around intersections (which are numerous in residential areas).

 

[EMEV]

I have experienced that even if the cameras are not that dirty by cleaning all of them before test driving FSDb it has noticeably improved the drivability and disengagements. So after installing 11.3.4 I cleaned all cameras before I did the test drives which resulted in good results with few problems.

 

[Mardak]

Has anyone here gotten the NA-2022.44 navigation map update that started rolling out yesterday? (Previously it was NA-2022.28.) Looks like at least one FSD Beta 11.x vehicle on Teslascope received it:

 

[johnmodely]

It looks like they both may be dead as all new 11.3.x releases have ceased. There are still a bunch of cars (15-20%) stuck on the 10.69 branch.

Yea im stuck on 69 as well, dont know what the point of keeping 20% on the old version is...

 

[Dewg]

Yea im stuck on 69 as well, dont know what the point of keeping 20% on the old version is...

Where are you seeing that 80% are on the new version? When I check TeslaFi the percentage of the fleet on 11.3.x is around 25%.

 

[Mardak]

dont know what the point of keeping 20% on the old version is

Potentially this could help with an A/B/C comparison among 20% 10.69.x, 35% 11.3.3 and 45% 11.3.4 where at least all 3 branches are theoretically being used at the same time. This avoids comparing against "old" 10.69.x data collected during Q1 which could have less sunlight and/or poorer weather.

But there's different kinds of biases of people are probably excited to try out the new 11.x where 11.3.4 was released more recently than 11.3.3 while usage of 10.69.x might be relatively lower, so Tesla would still need to try to adjust for those differences.

 

[Dewg]

Thanks. Maybe this is getting too much gaming the system or maybe Tesla doesn't even make a distinction, but theoretically the 3 types of disengagements could be generally ranked by likelihood of safety issue:

1. braking
2. steering
3. stalk

Where maybe Tesla intentionally isn't asking about interventions like manual turn signal and accelerator overrides (but probably collects telemetry via their Autopilot Trip Logs). So if say average FSD Beta 11.x users aren't doing these extra steps to specially report phantom braking, it would probably be relatively under-represented in Tesla's aggregate metrics and lack of other details doesn't really tell Tesla new information.

One potential prioritization and filtering step for Tesla to process all these voice notes is to find frequently reported unsafe behaviors?

You're thinking more like a Beta user, which is refreshing. Drive the car, and when it performs poorly, intervene and report the issue.

Many Beta users don't do this. They treat it like released features and cuss at it when it makes a mistake, never reporting it.

It's similar to Windows. When people install Windows, they turn off all the telemetry and don't want Microsoft to know how they use their computer. Then they complain when a feature is added or removed, saying "Hey! I use that feature all the time! Why did they remove it?" Duh, because most people don't give feedback or offer telemetry, so that's on you.

 

[Joboo7777]

Yep, still broken: No right on red, no recognition of school zones, no slowing for RR crossings, crazy city lane changes, no slowing for speed bumps, phantom slowdowns on tight curves, random crosswalk hesitations and the continuing disaster that is roundabouts. Highway driving is smoother but not so significant as to be an impressive step.

11.3.x is notable to me only for merging stacks, which is IMO a big accomplishment. Now back to the regularly scheduled programming of fixing all the long term flaws in city driving. At least there's light ahead in the boring tunnel.

You make a good point here. I haven’t been a Tesla owner for long, but it does seem like the major goal of v11 was unification of city street and highway driving. Well, Mission accomplished.

I know you long timers don’t want to hear this since you’ve been waiting for v11 for years and have been paying for FSD for even longer, but I would expect the next major version to focus on refining and enhancing the capability.

 

[EVNow]

But yes, meant to report that FSD Beta 11.3.4 is unusable in residential areas due to lack of typical human-like behavior around intersections (which are numerous in residential areas).

I must be super-human because I use FSD all the time in residential areas

I've not had much time with FSD 11 but didn't seem all that "bad" compared to 69.x. The turns are slower and more to my liking, stays close to the left side on unmarked roads .... atleast those two are better than 69.x. Seems a bit more jittery at intersections, which is the worse thing.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I must be super-human because I use FSD all the time in residential areas

It's sort of fine if there is no one around and you don't mind pushing the accelerator a lot, but if there is anyone behind you at an intersection, you're just going to piss them off, guaranteed. And that's not cool.

Cannot remember if you have 11.3.4 yet (which is a bit worse in this regard - 10.69 would surge forward after the stop without clearly having visibility, which while not reassuring, was faster than 11.3.4).

At some point I’ll post some comparison videos I guess.

 

[EVNow]

It's sort of fine if there is no one around and you don't mind pushing the accelerator a lot, but if there is anyone behind you at an intersection, you're just going to piss them off, guaranteed. And that's not cool.

I frequently have people behind me. Gauranteed they are not pissed off and I don't even use accelerator as we have discussed before. But here in the NW people are more humane and are not super angry all the time ... esp. in residential areas. They don't even honk if someone slows down and makes an illegal U-Turn

I've timed (in the past) how much time it takes FSD to make right turns and go from a stop sign. They are comparable to human drivers. I used the timing from cars in front of me to compare to what FSD does.

One place where the drivers behind me do get impatient is at/in roundabouts if FSD stops without any traffic around. I usually disengage (or rarely use accelerator). Infact at tiny roundabouts where FSD is super bad - I always disengage if there is someone behind.

 

[Alset2]

Another update worth mentioning...
Today on the way to the office had the following events that were NOT present before this update, Once again I have to keep in mind that my computer is getting replaced in 2 weeks. Also this is a 6 mile trip that I do every morning.

-Pulling out of my neighborhood, car stopped at stop sign and started creeping forward. A car was coming form the left so I figured FSD was going to stop (albeit a little too close to the road for me), when it shot out in front of the on coming car. Thank goodness it was traveling the same direction as I was going.
I am very familiar with FSD behavior and this one almost caught me off guard. It has NEVER done anything like that before and I am not one to sound alarms over "beta" software doing starnge things. I am confident behind the wheel AND with FSD and I am taking time to type this because I thought it was worthy of a post.

-other issues other than the bad navigation logic was the phantom slow downs (not out right braking) are back...I counted 11 of them in the 6 mile trip. I have not had this issue for many revisions (like 10.6 or so). Its like its seeing the shadows from the trees again.

All previous observations still ture but it stopped for a cat running out in front of me suddenly. I was going about 40mph in an industrial area and the car saw it and reatcted very much like I would have to be honest...not violently but very decisively. Of course there were not any cones funneling me into the cat but such is life Dan!