FSD Beta v11.x

EVNow · May 5, 2023

Ramphex said:
Flying a plane was a learning curve. Driving junk software is just a bad experience.

Clearly you are not ready to put in some time. Think you are trying to use a 1980 PC, not an iPhone....

jebinc · May 5, 2023

sandman1330 said:
Yeeeeah..... One day after multiple, multiple disengagements, I actually responded with "Because FSD f***ing sucks." I was that frustrated.

Today I disengaged so many times it actually stopped even giving me the voice prompt... I wonder if I filled up the buffer so there's no more room for data.

I'm the first to admit I'm gunshy about disengagements, but I will absolutely not let it do things that inconvenience or confuse other drivers. Hesitate at a turn: disengage. Swerve in lane: Disengage. Janky deceleration coming to a stop sign: Disengage. I already draw the ire of local drivers just by virtue of driving a Tesla in oil country, I don't need to give them more reasons to road rage. When I first got FSD I let it do it's thing, and got flipped off, swerved at, and honked at so much I won't do it anymore.

If you think you just need to adapt to it, it's either working alot better for you than for many of us, or your have stockholm syndrome

kabin · May 5, 2023

jebinc said:
*!#* FSD!

Some might prefer directing it to the team.

boonedocks · May 5, 2023

EVNow said:
Or we have learnt to use it better.

I can use FSD with no disengagements if I use it in selected areas only. There are 3 distinct places on my commute that FSD will make a completely wrong decision every time. So if you mean "Or we have learnt to use it better" meaning don't use it were it won't work then yes. I don't give FSD good reviews because I don't use it where it breaks every time.

sandman1330 · May 5, 2023

boonedocks said:
I can use FSD with no disengagements if I use it in selected areas only. There are 3 distinct places on my commute that FSD will make a completely wrong decision every time. So if you mean "Or we have learnt to use it better" meaning don't use it were it won't work then yes. I don't give FSD good reviews because I don't use it where it breaks every time.

Precisely. This is the jist of what my response was going to be.

How do we use it better? I'm asking because I genuinely want to use it. But how do I stop it from swerving wildly in lane trying to decide whether to hug the right or stay left in a right turn, slamming on the brakes 50m before the stop sign, stopping dead mid-turn, etc? Or worse (and this does happen regularly), trying to pull in front of speeding traffic.

What are my options to "use it better" other than to intervene or just turn it off when we know it won't work? Genuinely would like to know.

willow_hiller · May 5, 2023

sandman1330 said:
How do we use it better? I'm asking because I genuinely want to use it. But how do I stop it from swerving wildly in lane trying to decide whether to hug the right or stay left in a right turn, slamming on the brakes 50m before the stop sign, stopping dead mid-turn, etc? Or worse (and this does happen regularly), trying to pull in front of speeding traffic.

What are my options to "use it better" other than to intervene or just turn it off when we know it won't work? Genuinely would like to know.

To me, using it better means having realistic expectations, accepting it's not going to drive like you do, and being able to distinguish undesirable driving and unsafe driving.

It's tempting to treat any driving behavior that differs from what you would do yourself as unsafe, and if you disengage every time it does something you wouldn't do, you're going to be disappointed and frustrated. More often that not, this undesirable behavior does objectively decrease your safety margin compared to what you would do, but it isn't inherently unsafe unless there are other risk factors present.

At the end of the day, it's a product you paid for. Use it how/when you want to use it.

sandman1330 · May 5, 2023

willow_hiller said:
To me, using it better means having realistic expectations, accepting it's not going to drive like you do, and being able to distinguish undesirable driving and unsafe driving.

It's tempting to treat any driving behavior that differs from what you would do yourself as unsafe, and if you disengage every time it does something you wouldn't do, you're going to be disappointed and frustrated. More often that not, this undesirable behavior does objectively decrease your safety margin compared to what you would do, but it isn't inherently unsafe unless there are other risk factors present.

At the end of the day, it's a product you paid for. Use it how/when you want to use it.

That's a good post and you are correct.

In my case though, when I try and let it do it's thing, it induces some pretty significant responses from drivers around me. I'm not sure many realize how frustrated they are making the drivers around them when they let FSDb try and drive.

I mean, imagine, you're in a protected left turn. Arrow comes on, you follow the car ahead of you through - then that car suddenly slams on the brakes and stops mid-turn. Are you going to be happy?

Or you come to a busy 4 way stop. The car ahead of you just sits there. Or starts to go, then stops halfway through the turn. What do you think is going through the minds of the other drivers? "What is this a$$-clown doing" is probably one of the milder sentiments.

One of my turns on my commute has a left turn lane open up just before the turn. Once I was in the "let the car work" mentality. It signalled to go into that lane, started the lane change, aborted and swerved back into the straight lane, then swerved back into the turn lane again, all while decelarating. I received a well earned bird and exasperated "WTF" motion from the motorcycle behind me that was trying to go straight, only to have my car repeatedly swerve from one lane to the next right in front of him while rapidly decelerating.

Was that objectively unsafe? No. Was it absolutely incorrect behaviour? Yup. Every FSD drive for me includes examples like this.

jebinc · May 5, 2023

willow_hiller said:
To me, using it better means having realistic expectations, accepting it's not going to drive like you do, and being able to distinguish undesirable driving and unsafe driving.

It's tempting to treat any driving behavior that differs from what you would do yourself as unsafe, and if you disengage every time it does something you wouldn't do, you're going to be disappointed and frustrated. More often that not, this undesirable behavior does objectively decrease your safety margin compared to what you would do, but it isn't inherently unsafe unless there are other risk factors present.

At the end of the day, it's a product you paid for. Use it how/when you want to use it.

It is NOT the product I paid for, based on what was advertised at the time it would be. Not at all.

@WilliamG

EVNow · May 5, 2023

boonedocks said:
I can use FSD with no disengagements if I use it in selected areas only. There are 3 distinct places on my commute that FSD will make a completely wrong decision every time. So if you mean "Or we have learnt to use it better" meaning don't use it were it won't work then yes. I don't give FSD good reviews because I don't use it where it breaks every time.

We are not talking about using with no disengagements. We are talking really about using it for convenience (i.e. as an ADAS feature).

In my trips, I do have to disengage (for construction or roundabouts). But rest of the trip is convenient because of FSD.

Some of the folks say they need to disengage at every intersection - which makes it no better than AP/EAP. That is not very convenient, and I can see why they don't like FSD (though I used to use AP that way before FSD).

My contention is the reason we see some people saying they need to disengage at every intersection while others can have lot of zero or just one or two intervention drives is because of the "learning curve" / nit-picking. For eg. @jebinc and I drive in the same area (but in different suburbs, sounds like) and I can use it for 90%+ of my drives and he can't. The difference can only be explained by the learning curve and our expectations (may be a bit of yoke vs non-yoke).

WilliamG · May 5, 2023

EVNow said:
We are not talking about using with no disengagements. We are talking really about using it for convenience (i.e. as an ADAS feature).

In my trips, I do have to disengage (for construction or roundabouts). But rest of the trip is convenient because of FSD.

Some of the folks say they need to disengage at every intersection - which makes it no better than AP/EAP. That is not very convenient, and I can see why they don't like FSD (though I used to use AP that way before FSD).

My contention is the reason we see some people saying they need to disengage at every intersection while others can have lot of zero or just one or two intervention drives is because of the "learning curve" / nit-picking. For eg. @jebinc and I drive in the same area (but in different suburbs, sounds like) and I can use it for 90%+ of my drives and he can't. The difference can only be explained by the learning curve and our expectations (may be a bit of yoke vs non-yoke).

EVNow, please come over to West Seattle. I guarantee you can't use FSD for more than 60 seconds without taking over. It's an abomination. Even in Seattle proper it flat-out doesn't work, changes lane late, jerking left and right etc etc, slamming brakes on for stop signs. I would love to see a video of you driving for a few minutes on regular city streets without feeling like you need to disengage because the car is doing something stupid, holding people up beyond what would be considered even remotely "normal" etc. Just because the car isn't disengaging by itself is not an indicator of success.

sandman1330 · May 5, 2023

EVNow said:
My contention is the reason we see some people saying they need to disengage at every intersection while others can have lot of zero or just one or two intervention drives is because of the "learning curve" / nit-picking. For eg. @jebinc and I drive in the same area (but in different suburbs, sounds like) and I can use it for 90%+ of my drives and he can't. The difference can only be explained by the learning curve and our expectations (may be a bit of yoke vs non-yoke).

I think what you refer to as learning curve, I think of as tolerance. I think we're talking about the same thing with different labelling.

That tolerance has two facets: my tolerance to let FSD do its thing, and the tolerance of others around me to do the same.

I love when I get to drive on relatively open roads, as I then do let FSD work. If it's not impeding others around me, I'll wait for it. My tolerance is high.

Unfortunately it's the tolerance of others that we can't control. During busy morning / afternoon commutes when tempers are already short, I disengage at every intersection. It's just too slow and janky, and it impedes traffic flow and angers those around me. It's easy to look in the rear view mirror at an unprotected left (or even a protected one sometimes!), and see the reaction of the person behind you. You'll see the hands come up in the "what is this person doing?" gesture. After the turn they'll fly past you with the "glare".

In low traffic situations, I actually get 0 intervention drives, a fair bit. I've said it before, FSD is actually quite capable of safely driving. What it fails miserably at is integrating properly with human drivers. My tolerance to let it impede others is very low, which is why I have so many interventions.

EVNow · May 5, 2023

WilliamG said:
EVNow, please come over to West Seattle. I guarantee you can't use FSD for more than 60 seconds without taking over. It's an abomination. Even in Seattle proper it flat-out doesn't work, changes lane late, jerking left and right etc etc, slamming brakes on for stop signs. I would love to see a video of you driving for a few minutes on regular city streets without feeling like you need to disengage because the car is doing something stupid, holding people up beyond what would be considered even remotely "normal" etc. Just because the car isn't disengaging by itself is not an indicator of success.

Apart from being more hilly than east suburbs, not sure why you would have so many problems in West Seattle. You can ask these guys to try in West Seattle and post videos. Chances me coming over to West Seattle in the near future is limited (taking care of family healthcare issues).

You can follow this guy's videos. He drives from Seattle to Redmond regularly and posts videos.

https://www.youtube.com/@SeattleFSD

This guy had lots of problems (he normally drives in southern suburbs)

EVNow · May 5, 2023

sandman1330 said:
During busy morning / afternoon commutes when tempers are already short, I disengage at every intersection.

So you disengage at traffic signals you are going straight ? Traffic lights where SD has to turn ... ?

Some like (you know who) say they don't like the way FSD stops at stop lights, traffic lights etc. So they basically use FSD like AP (before FSD was available). That doesn't sound like what you are doing.

I don't commute to work ... so I avoid the highest traffic periods of the day. But even then, FSD works well in stop-and-go traffic as long as there are urgent ULTs to be done etc. You don't turn at every intersection afterall

jebinc · May 5, 2023

WilliamG said:
EVNow, please come over to West Seattle. I guarantee you can't use FSD for more than 60 seconds without taking over. It's an abomination. Even in Seattle proper it flat-out doesn't work, changes lane late, jerking left and right etc etc, slamming brakes on for stop signs. I would love to see a video of you driving for a few minutes on regular city streets without feeling like you need to disengage because the car is doing something stupid, holding people up beyond what would be considered even remotely "normal" etc. Just because the car isn't disengaging by itself is not an indicator of success.

No kidding. Use location seems to matter more than the espoused “learning curve”…. FSD is unpredictable and unreliable, therefore undependable. I’m other words, it’s Junk.

EVNow · May 5, 2023

jebinc said:
No kidding. Use location seems to matter more than the espoused “learning curve”…. FSD is unpredictable and unreliable, therefore undependable. I’m other words, it’s Junk.

So all of us are lying ? How do you explain a lot of us who can safely use it as ADAS for vast majority of our drives ?

jebinc · May 5, 2023

EVNow said:
So all of us are lying ? How do you explain a lot of us who can safely use it as ADAS for vast majority of our drives ?

As I said, “use location seems to matter more than espoused ‘learning curve’”….

EVNow · May 5, 2023

jebinc said:
As I said, “use location seems to matter more than espoused ‘learning curve’”….

I don't think the suburbs you drive in are very different from the ones I drive in (Redmond/Issaquah/Bellevue).

jebinc · May 5, 2023

EVNow said:
I don't think the suburbs you drive in are very different from the ones I drive in (Redmond/Issaquah/Bellevue).

I do. I’m in unincorporated King County. Much different. Anyway, enjoy your…

@WilliamG has been to my house and can attest.

@Ramphex

EVNow · May 5, 2023

jebinc said:
I do. I’m in unincorporated King County. Much different. Anyway, enjoy your…

I drive around in unincroporated King county quite a bit (beyond Redmond, Issaquah, Northbend etc). Have less issues than in Bellevue/Redmond heavy traffic. You can see Dirty Tesla's video for ex-urban / rural driving videos - there are several others as well.

Anyway - not trying to convince anyone - trying to figure out the reasons for wide differences in experience.

jebinc · May 5, 2023

EVNow said:
I drive around in unincroporated King county quite a bit (beyond Redmond, Issaquah, Northbend etc). Have less issues than in Bellevue/Redmond heavy traffic. You can see Dirty Tesla's video for ex-urban / rural driving videos - there are several others as well.

Anyway - not trying to convince anyone - trying to figure out the reasons for wide differences in experience.

Many roundabouts here as well….

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