FSD Beta v11.x

Knightshade · Jun 11, 2023

Supcom said:
It is perfectly fine to use FSDb without a destination set.

It's fine to do it but thanks to Green we know your results will be worse---- because when a destination is input it gets data back from the servers about fsdb relevant info along your route that it does not get with no destination input

Ramphex said:
As expected. But the 3/Y owners will never believe us and think just because their expedience might be okay, that ours HAS to be

I believe you believe it's worse on refresh S/X than 3/Y, but I've yet to hear any actual fact-adjacent explanation for how or why that could actually be possible, versus just a much smaller # of users in general being in a refresh S/X so if only a couple happen to drive someplace it's worse in general it might give an inaccurate suggestion of cause.

Genie · Jun 11, 2023

Knightshade said:
It's fine to do it but thanks to Green we know your results will be worse---- because when a destination is input it gets data back from the servers about fsdb relevant info along your route that it does not get with no destination input

There may be less steering nags when I have the destination entered, but I am not seeing better FSD performance. I try driving both ways and get the same errors with or without destination.

WilliamG · Jun 11, 2023

drtimhill said:
There is nothing wrong with anecdotes per se, and indeed they can be informative or suggestive. But they are not evidence in the strict sense. I'm fine with people saying "my experience is X". but when they then jump from that to "and so XXX is garbage" or similar they are extrapolating from one example to a general case, which is almost NEVER a valid jump.

Except all the examples provided here, anecdotally (I speak for myself) can pretty easily be reproduced by someone else. It's not as if I'm talking about an edge case and people are screaming, "Noooo, phantom braking isn't a thing on Teslas!" As stated, - it was my own experience, so obviously I'm speaking for myself, and I don't even deny that other manufacturers may experience phantom braking on their cars. But, - how about a bet that at least historically Teslas experienced it more than any other car? Or how about current Teslas have the worst parking sensors (i.e. zero useful) of any car in this price range? This isn't anecdotal, - this is just pure fact. As @Ramphex stated, we're not getting working FSD that's safer than an average human in our cars' lifetime. People here are 100% delusional if they think that's true. This wouldn't bother me if we hadn't spent thousands upon thousands of dollars on this software, as the journey would be enjoyable without being conned - but let's get this clear, - it was and is a con.

When I bought my Model 3 in 2019 (and yes, I was late to the FSD party even then!), FSD was promised to be coming later that year. We all know how this went... Somehow I was stupid enough to buy FSD in 2021 (and 2022 after my buyback).

I'll say it again, - nobody here is getting FSD safer than a human driver in their current car's lifetime. Nobody. Now, does that mean that FSD isn't impressive in some ways? Of course not. I find it fascinating, - but it's not what's been promised, it's never going to be on this hardware, and the fact that we handed over a ton of money for it is just the cherry on top of this cake of misery.

Z_Lynx · Jun 11, 2023

Right now I think of it as an expensive game. With consequences.
11.3.6 wouldn't always let me play (fsd often unavailable).

jebinc · Jun 11, 2023

Yeah, same mistake and timing here, @WilliamG

They HAD to know in 2019, when they promised at year end that was not possible. Incompetence or an outright lie. Neither is acceptable for a CEO.

“When I bought my Model 3 in 2019 (and yes, I was late to the FSD party even then!), FSD was promised to be coming later that year. We all know how this went... Somehow I was stupid enough to buy FSD in 2021 (and 2022 after my buyback).”

jebinc · Jun 11, 2023

WilliamG said:
- but it's not what's been promised, it's never going to be on this hardware, and the fact that we handed over a ton of money for it is just the cherry on top of this cake of misery.

Knightshade · Jun 11, 2023

WilliamG said:
how about a bet that at least historically Teslas experienced it more than any other car?

Given other cars had mandatory safety recalls for how bad it was on those, and Tesla has not, I think you'd lose that bet.

That's not saying Teslas was worse than SOME other cars, but it's demonstrably not worse than ANY other unless you think Elon has heavy blackmail info on the NHTSA folks.

WilliamG said:
When I bought my Model 3 in 2019 (and yes, I was late to the FSD party even then!), FSD was promised to be coming later that year. We all know how this went...

To be clear- FSD was promised to add city streets L2 driving later that year.

A date they missed, but fsdb has now delivered even if it doesn't work as well as you'd like. It DOES do L2 driving on city streets. You were never promised anything more during your purchase.

You might well have some legal recourse for it being a few years late.... EAP buyers famously got a token cash payout for those features being late for example.

WilliamG said:
Nobody. Now, does that mean that FSD isn't impressive in some ways? Of course not. I find it fascinating, - but it's not what's been promised

It literally is though for all the times you bought it.

Tesla hasn't promised any more than city streets L2 driving as part of FSD since March 2019.

Don't confuse "actual product description and promised features shown to you during purchase" with "Crazy future aspirational things Elon says on twitter"

Now, folks like me who bought BEFORE the big switchover in March 2019-- yeah, we were legit promised at least L4- and I don't believe we'll ever get that on current HW.

Then again we paid a lot less for FSD too.

Knightshade · Jun 11, 2023

Genie said:
There may be less steering nags when I have the destination entered, but I am not seeing better FSD performance. I try driving both ways and get the same errors with or without destination.

If you're interested in what's different with a destination vs not, green covers it starting here:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1641450299285209088

jebinc · Jun 11, 2023

Knightshade said:
Given other cars had mandatory safety recalls for how bad it was on those, and Tesla has not, I think you'd lose that bet.

That's not saying Teslas was worse than SOME other cars, but it's demonstrably not worse than ANY other unless you think Elon has heavy blackmail info on the NHTSA folks.

To be clear- FSD was promised to add city streets L2 driving later that year.

A date they missed, but fsdb has now delivered even if it doesn't work as well as you'd like. It DOES do L2 driving on city streets. You were never promised anything more during your purchase.

You might well have some legal recourse for it being a few years late.... EAP buyers famously got a token cash payout for those features being late for example.

It literally is though for all the times you bought it.

Tesla hasn't promised any more than city streets L2 driving as part of FSD since March 2019.

Don't confuse "actual product description and promised features shown to you during purchase" with "Crazy future aspirational things Elon says on twitter"

Now, folks like me who bought BEFORE the big switchover in March 2019-- yeah, we were legit promised at least L4- and I don't believe we'll ever get that on current HW.

Then again we paid a lot less for FSD too.

I’m fairly certain the “L2” talk only emerged more recently than 2019. And “city streets” was not stated as L2 in 2019. Prove me wrong.

WilliamG · Jun 11, 2023

Knightshade said:
Given other cars had mandatory safety recalls for how bad it was on those, and Tesla has not, I think you'd lose that bet.

That's not saying Teslas was worse than SOME other cars, but it's demonstrably not worse than ANY other unless you think Elon has heavy blackmail info on the NHTSA folks.

To be clear- FSD was promised to add city streets L2 driving later that year.

A date they missed, but fsdb has now delivered even if it doesn't work as well as you'd like. It DOES do L2 driving on city streets. You were never promised anything more during your purchase.

You might well have some legal recourse for it being a few years late.... EAP buyers famously got a token cash payout for those features being late for example.

It literally is though for all the times you bought it.

Tesla hasn't promised any more than city streets L2 driving as part of FSD since March 2019.

Don't confuse "actual product description and promised features shown to you during purchase" with "Crazy future aspirational things Elon says on twitter"

I wouldn't lose that bet re: phantom braking. Tesla has the benefit of a moving target when it comes to software updates, where phantom braking has improved/declined etc etc. Other manufacturers have their software set in stone. Tesla somehow hasn't been investigated or punished for just about anything it seems (window regulators is one they did get dinged on). 200mph requiring just wheels and tires, anyone? Just another lie.

I don't see how you can argue that Tesla only promised L2 and that's what they delivered when it comes to FSD. AutoPilot is Level 2, and that is an acceptable L2 release for the most part. I mean, they could have delivered FSD years ago then, surely! If Tesla doesn't care whether it safely delivers FSD L2, why not just call it done already? Also I'm pretty sure it was promised that the car would drive in city streets back in 2019, and it wasn't called Level 2 at the time, that I recall, but I'll defer on that. At the end of the day, it sounds like you're being a bit of an apologist, which is fine. But FSD is and always will be junk on these cars. Usable on occasion, but never usable on busy city streets, and I won't even get into edge cases, which are common, and which the car fails at. They're not even edge cases anymore they're so common, and part of the reason real FSD isn't coming anytime soon.

Coming later this year:

Recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs.
Automatic driving on city streets.

WilliamG · Jun 11, 2023

Z_Lynx said:
Right now I think of it as an expensive game. With consequences.
11.3.6 wouldn't always let me play (fsd often unavailable).

And that's another issue. I can't blame you for thinking that way, - that it's an "expensive game." But... you can see how for many other people it's their hard-earned income that's been made a mockery of.

jebinc · Jun 11, 2023

WilliamG said:
And that's another issue. I can't blame you for thinking that way, - that it's an "expensive game." But... you can see how for many other people it's their hard-earned income that's been made a mockery of.

Not only is the path to L5 gone and replaced, by the Great Charlatan, with “L2,” but said L2 system is currently unreliable/unpredictable Junk!

EVNow · Jun 11, 2023

jebinc said:
I don’t think that #TeamJunk accusation is accurate. I saw a post from @WilliamG (our #TeamJunk President ) here a day or so ago trying to coordinate a West Seattle comparison. Roads were even mentioned….

I'll present these without comment. We can all have our opinion but not our own facts. Took over a month to just say its "35 SW from the west seattle bridge" - that too after several posts by me asking for updates.

WilliamG said:
I didn’t follow up quite yet. Been a little busy/out of town. Also Chuck caught on and this specific issue is now bigger/getting more press than it was (though it’s hilarious that Chuck believes it’s only a 11.4.1 issue when it’s been a problem on 11.3.6, too).

We’ll see if Tesla can address it in the next update.

jebinc · Jun 11, 2023

EVNow said:
I'll present these without comment. We can all have our opinion but not our own facts. Took over a month to just say its "35 SW from the west seattle bridge" - that too after several posts by me asking for updates.

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It seems the delay occurred because Cook confirmed what @WilliamG reported earlier, when the FSDp crowd classified the input as FUD. Not sure. In any case, the originally reported complaint was later confirmed by many, include the YT Shills.

WilliamG · Jun 11, 2023

EVNow said:
I'll present these without comment. We can all have our opinion but not our own facts. Took over a month to just say its "35 SW from the west seattle bridge" - that too after several posts by me asking for updates.

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Seriously? You're really calling me out on some imagined infraction? As I said, I was waiting for 11.4.3 to come out, which took forever, and then I had to test. And then I followed up, providing updates on when I would. For goodness sake even Chuck concurred with my findings, so it's not some big secret. Really picked a weird hill to die on.

EVNow · Jun 11, 2023

jebinc said:
It seems the delay occurred because Cook confirmed what @WilliamG reported earlier, when the FSDp crowd classified the input as FUD. Not sure. In any case, the originally reported complaint was later confirmed by many, include the YT Shills.

Cook has had these stops for over a year now. Nothing new.

Obviously if there was interest it doesn't take long to write "35th SW at the end of west seattle bridge".

WilliamG said:
Seriously? You're really calling me out on some imagined infraction? As I said, I was waiting for 11.4.3 to come out, which took forever, and then I had to test. And then I followed up. For goodness sake even Chuck concurred with my findings, so it's not some big secret. You picked a really weird hill to die on.

You guys apparently so eager for me to come over and test. But when I found someone who was willing to test you backed off. Those are the facts.

ps : I'm not the one who brought all this up. I was just responding to an accusation by @Ramphex to say I was very eager to test it out - but reluctance to test came from #TeamJunk.

pps : BTW, I should note that I've never expressed any doubt that any of the experiences people are reporting here don't happen. There is a lot of variability and we were trying to figure out whether its because of 3/Y vs S/X, learning curve or some other factor.

WilliamG · Jun 11, 2023

EVNow said:
Cook has had these stops for over a year now. Nothing new.

Obviously if there was interest it doesn't take long to write "35th SW at the end of west seattle bridge".

You guys apparently so eager for me to come over and test. But when I found someone who was willing to test you backed off. Those are the facts.

Happy anytime for you to come over and test. I'll cancel any meeting to prove a point, now that 11.4.2 is out and it's still junk. I'm not in the mood to waste time (especially given you said you had limited of it) when there's a pending update that was (by all the discussions and Chuck's intimations) meant to be fixed moving from 11.4.1 > 11.4.2. It's not a secret, the road - I just didn't want to put information out there that was going to be days later outdated and not able to be deleted from this thread. Now 11.4.2 is out, - anytime you like. Again, a very strange hill to choose to die on, but carry on.

EVNow · Jun 11, 2023

WilliamG said:
Happy anytime for you to come over and test. I'll cancel any meeting to prove a point, now that 11.4.2 is out and it's still junk. I'm not in the mood to waste time (especially given you said you had limited of it) when there's a pending update that was (by all the discussions and Chuck's intimations) meant to be fixed moving from 11.4.1 > 11.4.2. It's not a secret, the road - I just didn't want to put information out there that was going to be days later outdated and not able to be deleted from this thread. Now 11.4.2 is out, - anytime you like. Again, a very strange hill to choose to die on, but carry on.

Well, we are not here at your beck & call. You didn't take the offer when you asked for it and was available. Now its upto @SeattleFSD and I might try it on my own if time permits.

But this is the indisputable fact
- You guys were challenging me to come and tes
- Since I couldn't come, I found someone who was more than willing to come and test
- You backed off

jebinc · Jun 11, 2023

EVNow said:
Well, we are not here at your beck & call. You didn't take the offer when you asked for it and was available. Now its upto @SeattleFSD and I might try it on my own if time permits.

But this is the indisputable fact
- You guys were challenging me to come and tes
- Since I couldn't come, I found someone who was more than willing to come and test
- You backed off

For the record, I publicly declined going to Seattle on day 1, as I knew what my experience was. Feel free to go back in history to confirm that fact. Anyways….

WilliamG · Jun 11, 2023

EVNow said:
Well, we are not here at your beck & call. You didn't take the offer when you asked for it and was available. Now its upto @SeattleFSD and I might try it on my own if time permits.

But this is the indisputable fact
- You guys were challenging me to come and tes
- Since I couldn't come, I found someone who was more than willing to come and test
- You backed off

Classic. First, there was no challenge. There was a request. You couldn't come/didn't want to come. Fine. You found someone else, - yep, no argument there. I did not "back off." I waited for the next update that was imminent, it did not fix the issue that was then (and quite coincidently right after my complaints) widely publicized by a Model 3 driver and everyone's favorite left turner, Chuck Cook. The update came out, didn't fix the issue, and I immediately posted the location for someone to test. But by all means, follow your own narrative if it makes you feel better?

Beck and call? You're hilarious, mate.

I'm moving on from this particular discourse which does nothing but distract from the original point which is: FSD is rubbish.

FSD Beta v11.x

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