FSD Beta v11.x

SSDTester#1 · Jun 11, 2023

jebinc said:
Yep, it’s painted - “Feature complete”

There might be paint all over the outlets, the carpet, the trim, other walls, light switches….. but yea it’ll be painted. That’s how @Yelobird rolls. To him that would be acceptable, and he would say “but I never said there wouldn’t be paint splatter everywhere, so yea the task is done”

WilliamG · Jun 11, 2023

Knightshade said:
You are wrong.

View attachment 945965

Circled in red is where they make it clear this is an L2 system you are buying.

They missed the 'later this year' promise on city streets of course, but fsdb delivers that today.

Tesla has not promised you anything higher than L2 since that change ~March 2019.

Prior to that they promised a system that is (at least) L4-- arguably L5. That March 2019 change altered the entire product description to be FAR more specific and conservative about future capabilities.

Almost certainly so as to limit legal liability if they couldn't ever deliver L4 or better.

This is, of course, complete nonsense.

Otherwise how would any of the much-worse-braking-problem non-Teslas have ever been fixed?

The difference is you had to physically bring them in for software updates.

So your argument then turns into--- Tesla has WORSE problems, and COULD fix them easier... therefore they haven't been forced to fix them... when others with problems you claim are NOT AS BAD have been forced to, even though fixing them is harder.

Which is nonsensical. But that's the story you just told us.

No, in reality others had worse, more objectively dangerous, braking issues- and NHTSA forced them to fix them. All investigations of Tesla have NOT produced similar results.

Therefore your claim it's worse for Tesla than anyone else is factually wrong

Because that's literally what they promised you during the sale of the product

See pic attached near top.

Again this is nonsensical.

You can have vastly different sets of capabilities that all are level 2.

Except, again, it was. Because it made clear it would not be autonomous.

You seem to have bought FSD, multiple times, without bothering to read what you were actually buying.

Maybe check your hearing?

I'm sticking to actual facts instead of false memories and hyperbole. You might want to try that too.

Case in point.

Yes. At level 2.

They were late, but began delivering this via FSDb in 2021 to some owners, and to "everyone" who asks for it now.

Not getting into another back and forth on all of it, but I will point out that it says the "currently" enabled features require supervision... Also there's mention of reliability FAR in excess of human drivers. How is this possible without being beyond L2?

jebinc · Jun 11, 2023

Knightshade said:
You are wrong.

View attachment 945965

Circled in red is where they make it clear this is an L2 system you are buying.

They missed the 'later this year' promise on city streets of course, but fsdb delivers that today.

Tesla has not promised you anything higher than L2 since that change ~March 2019.

Prior to that they promised a system that is (at least) L4-- arguably L5. That March 2019 change altered the entire product description to be FAR more specific and conservative about future capabilities.

Almost certainly so as to limit legal liability if they couldn't ever deliver L4 or better.

This is, of course, complete nonsense.

Otherwise how would any of the much-worse-braking-problem non-Teslas have ever been fixed?

The difference is you had to physically bring them in for software updates.

So your argument then turns into--- Tesla has WORSE problems, and COULD fix them easier... therefore they haven't been forced to fix them... when others with problems you claim are NOT AS BAD have been forced to, even though fixing them is harder.

Which is nonsensical. But that's the story you just told us.

No, in reality others had worse, more objectively dangerous, braking issues- and NHTSA forced them to fix them. All investigations of Tesla have NOT produced similar results.

Therefore your claim it's worse for Tesla than anyone else is factually wrong

Because that's literally what they promised you during the sale of the product

See pic attached near top.

Again this is nonsensical.

You can have vastly different sets of capabilities that all are level 2.

Except, again, it was. Because it made clear it would not be autonomous.

You seem to have bought FSD, multiple times, without bothering to read what you were actually buying.

Maybe check your hearing?

I'm sticking to actual facts instead of false memories and hyperbole. You might want to try that too.

Case in point.

Yes. At level 2.

They were late, but began delivering this via FSDb in 2021 to some owners, and to "everyone" who asks for it now.

Just a comment on your, “You are wrong” statement….. The operative words, in that red highlighted box, are “Currently enabled,” and not the other items “coming soon”. The other members’ statements that our HW3 and lower cars will never get past L2, remains. Recall, it was more recently that The Great Charlatan was had by the state of California “L2 only” filing….

jebinc · Jun 11, 2023

WilliamG said:
Not getting into another back and forth on all of it, but I will point out that it says the "currently" enabled features require supervision... Also there's mention of reliability FAR in excess of human drivers. How is this possible without being beyond L2?

Funny, I just typed out a similar response while you were typing yours!

jebinc · Jun 11, 2023

Ramphex said:
There might be paint all over the outlets, the carpet, the trim, other walls, light switches….. but yea it’ll be painted. That’s how @Yelobird rolls. To him that would be acceptable, and he would say “but I never said there wouldn’t be paint splatter everywhere, so yea the task is done”

To each….

PR0FESSOR · Jun 11, 2023

Just to recap the last 23 pages of posts:

1. Tesla’s FSD is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and will solve world hunger.
2. Tesla’s FSD is *sugar*, and will always never work.
3. Bacon.

Joe

SSDTester#1 · Jun 11, 2023

Every day is a new error since 2023.X branch lol

Knightshade · Jun 11, 2023

jebinc said:
Just a comment on your, “You are wrong” statement….. The operative words, in that red highlighted box, are “Currently enabled,” and not the other items “coming soon”. The other members’ statements that our HW3 and lower cars will never get past L2, remains.

Except that wasn't the debate.

It was did Tesla ever promise the buyer MORE than L2.

The answer, as you can see in that picture, is no.

When stop lights/signs moved from "coming later" to the existing/included section that "does not make the vehicle autonomous" statement did not change.

It won't change when city streets moves there either.

jebinc said:
Recall, it was more recently that The Great Charlatan was had by the state of California “L2 only” filing….

You realize all that does is reinforce what I am saying right?

That FSD as sold since March 2019 is L2 only, and they explicitly tell you that when buying it, and Tesla repeated that fact about city streets in the CA DMV docs you reference.

It's weird you'd call him a charlatan for confirming the promise during the sales process was accurate.

WilliamG said:
Not getting into another back and forth on all of it, but I will point out that it says the "currently" enabled features require supervision... Also there's mention of reliability FAR in excess of human drivers. How is this possible without being beyond L2?

See above.

And how is the "excess" possible? Easily.

We have that NOW- Tesla publishes stats on it quarterly.

They compare accident rates for "all human drivers" to human drivers with Tesla active safety features (this is lower than just human) and then compared to human drivers with autopilot (lower still than just human drivers OR to tesla drivers with only active safety features)

Likewise the currently available accident rate for FSDb is significantly lower than the rate for just a human driver.

All of Teslas systems that produce lower-than-just-human accident rates are no higher than L2. But all produce safety in excess of a human.

You don't seem entirely clear on what the SAE levels actually mean though since you keep insisting X can't be L2 when it easily can.

Scott Chapman · Jun 11, 2023

Ramphex said:
View attachment 945979

Every day is a new error since 2023.X branch lol

I think you are just being trolled by the AI (which apparently reads TMC)

JHCCAZ · Jun 11, 2023

Ramphex said:
View attachment 945979

Every day is a new error since 2023.X branch lol

I already told you, you're the one with the car in Passive Aggressive mode.

"You don't like the way I steer? Fine, do it yourself. And don't expect any assist with that either.
What's that? Junk you say? Say it again, I got ya junk right here!"

Yelobird · Jun 11, 2023

Ramphex said:
There might be paint all over the outlets, the carpet, the trim, other walls, light switches….. but yea it’ll be painted. That’s how @Yelobird rolls. To him that would be acceptable, and he would say “but I never said there wouldn’t be paint splatter everywhere, so yea the task is done”

It could have been painted by Picasso and you‘d find something to complain about. He didn’t do it fast enough so it’s a fail.

JHCCAZ · Jun 11, 2023

@Ramphex

By the way, there are actually a bunch of threads about this:
Threads about steering assist failure
Good luck

Dennisis · Jun 11, 2023

PR0FESSOR said:
Just to recap the last 23 pages of posts:

1. Tesla’s FSD is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and will solve world hunger.
2. Tesla’s FSD is *sugar*, and will always never work.
3. Bacon.

Joe

Just 23? Why does it seem like more?.....

WilliamG · Jun 11, 2023

Knightshade said:
Except that wasn't the debate.

It was did Tesla ever promise the buyer MORE than L2.

The answer, as you can see in that picture, is no.

When stop lights/signs moved from "coming later" to the existing/included section that "does not make the vehicle autonomous" statement did not change.

It won't change when city streets moves there either.

You realize all that does is reinforce what I am saying right?

That FSD as sold since March 2019 is L2 only, and they explicitly tell you that when buying it, and Tesla repeated that fact about city streets in the CA DMV docs you reference.

It's weird you'd call him a charlatan for confirming the promise during the sales process was accurate.

See above.

And how is the "excess" possible? Easily.

We have that NOW- Tesla publishes stats on it quarterly.

They compare accident rates for "all human drivers" to human drivers with Tesla active safety features (this is lower than just human) and then compared to human drivers with autopilot (lower still than just human drivers OR to tesla drivers with only active safety features)

Likewise the currently available accident rate for FSDb is significantly lower than the rate for just a human driver.

All of Teslas systems that produce lower-than-just-human accident rates are no higher than L2. But all produce safety in excess of a human.

You don't seem entirely clear on what the SAE levels actually mean though since you keep insisting X can't be L2 when it easily can.

That whole metric is idiotic. People with FSD enabled are on the whole going to be far more attentive than those who don’t have it enabled, because many (most?) expect it to royally mess up at any time. It’s just smoke and mirrors from Tesla. If I left FSD enabled and never took over I’d have had any number of accidents already. My car would not be road worthy at this point.

What Tesla should be saying is that drivers with FSD enabled are safer than drivers without, because drivers live in a permanent state of hyper awareness with FSD enabled. You take the average driver of any other car versus a Tesla with FSD enabled and the driver unable to disable FSD, the human driver will on average be far safer. FSD in of itself, today, does not make cars safer. But you certainly don’t see Tesla stating that the constant fear FSD drivers live in is contributing to safety.

Now, when it comes to AutoPilot, that’s a different matter. But FSD on e.g. Seattle city streets? Get outta here. I’ll put my money where my mouth is, too, in any way you like.

Now you’ll just respond: See! FSD = safer human drivers!

I’ll roll my eyes at that. You remove seatbelts from cars and you’ll have slower/safer drivers, too.

JHCCAZ · Jun 11, 2023

PR0FESSOR said:
Tesla’s FSD is the greatest thing since sliced bread

Yes, but watch your fingers around that bread slicer

WilliamG · Jun 11, 2023

PR0FESSOR said:
Just to recap the last 23 pages of posts:

1. Tesla’s FSD is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and will solve world hunger.
2. Tesla’s FSD is *sugar*, and will always never work.
3. Bacon.

Joe

Hmm. Missed the part about bacon.

Genie · Jun 11, 2023

Knightshade said:
If you're interested in what's different with a destination vs not, green covers it starting here:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1641450299285209088

Entering the destination does not fix any of the errors my MX makes on FSDb regardless of that tweet. It probably induces more, since my navigation has also developed bugs recently.

Yelobird · Jun 11, 2023

Drove for roughly 3 hours out to party with the family. Set FSDb at the end of driveway and didn’t have a single questionable intervention ending at their house. Variety of road types but minimal if any highway driving. One case where a car suddenly turned I gave the pedal a slight “I confirm it’s clear” otherwise no issues as are most of my drives. My only request for update would be the need to always have to select average and minimal lane change on each drive. IF it left my preferred setting as default I would have no issues with lane changes a bit too often. Not that they are “dangerous“ just unnecessary. Had great conversation with family the entire drive and arrived relaxed for an evening of fun.

drtimhill · Jun 11, 2023

WilliamG said:
Except all the examples provided here, anecdotally (I speak for myself) can pretty easily be reproduced by someone else. It's not as if I'm talking about an edge case and people are screaming, "Noooo, phantom braking isn't a thing on Teslas!" As stated, - it was my own experience, so obviously I'm speaking for myself, and I don't even deny that other manufacturers may experience phantom braking on their cars. But, - how about a bet that at least historically Teslas experienced it more than any other car? Or how about current Teslas have the worst parking sensors (i.e. zero useful) of any car in this price range? This isn't anecdotal, - this is just pure fact. As @Ramphex stated, we're not getting working FSD that's safer than an average human in our cars' lifetime. People here are 100% delusional if they think that's true. This wouldn't bother me if we hadn't spent thousands upon thousands of dollars on this software, as the journey would be enjoyable without being conned - but let's get this clear, - it was and is a con.

When I bought my Model 3 in 2019 (and yes, I was late to the FSD party even then!), FSD was promised to be coming later that year. We all know how this went... Somehow I was stupid enough to buy FSD in 2021 (and 2022 after my buyback).

I'll say it again, - nobody here is getting FSD safer than a human driver in their current car's lifetime. Nobody. Now, does that mean that FSD isn't impressive in some ways? Of course not. I find it fascinating, - but it's not what's been promised, it's never going to be on this hardware, and the fact that we handed over a ton of money for it is just the cherry on top of this cake of misery.

I think pretty much everything in this post reinforces what I've said about people extrapolating from their experience to the general. I've driven 50,000 miles in my Tesla and have had exactly THREE events I would classify as PB, and while they were annoying, and even a bit WTF, they were not dangerous. Based on that, if I took your attitude I would shout angrily at you that you are talking garbage and are an anti-Tesla troll. Would you think that reasonable?

As for the specific claims, well if it helps your wounded pride to rant random stuff as facts then go ahead. Though it's nice that you personally thoroughly tested every single brand of comparable car to determine that Tesla has the worst parking sensors.

Therealm80 · Jun 11, 2023

At first when I got 11.4.2 it was very bad but after driving it for about a week or so it improved and my interventions have been much less mostly accelerator pedal pushes, but my disengagement have gone way down. I was really pissed at first but now it’s starting to get better. Not sure why maybe the NN

FSD Beta v11.x

Testing the Solidity of the State

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