Why would you point to the NHTSA?
The recall didn't implement that for v11 in my cars. Did it for others?
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FSD v12.x (end to end AI)
- Thread starter Buckminster
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- #fixphantombraking autopilot chill is not chill elon is an ass fix fsd extreme late deceleration fsd does not commit to go fsd does not maintain proper speed fsd hard and late braking fsd jerky driving fsd late deceleration fsd stops too early too quickly fsd stops too far behind line fsd tailgating in city streets
The recall didn't implement that for v11 in my cars. Did it for others?
powertoold
Active Member
NHTSA specifically pointed out running yellows as a "problem"
Tesla Updates FSD In Response To NHTSA Recall Notice - CleanTechnica
Tesla says it is ready to roll out a new update for its full self driving system that will address a recall by NHTSA issued in February.
cleantechnica.com
“The FSD Beta system may allow the vehicle to act unsafe around intersections, such as traveling straight through an intersection while in a turn-only lane, entering a stop sign-controlled intersection without coming to a complete stop, or proceeding into an intersection during a steady yellow traffic signal without due caution. In addition, the system may respond insufficiently to changes in posted speed limits or not adequately account for the driver’s adjustment of the vehicle’s speed to exceed posted speed limits.”
But I didn't have any change with the recall nor have I observed anyone else say they've seen the change. Have you?NHTSA specifically pointed out running yellows as a "problem"
Tesla Updates FSD In Response To NHTSA Recall Notice - CleanTechnica
Tesla says it is ready to roll out a new update for its full self driving system that will address a recall by NHTSA issued in February.
“The FSD Beta system may allow the vehicle to act unsafe around intersections, such as traveling straight through an intersection while in a turn-only lane, entering a stop sign-controlled intersection without coming to a complete stop, or proceeding into an intersection during a steady yellow traffic signal without due caution. In addition, the system may respond insufficiently to changes in posted speed limits or not adequately account for the driver’s adjustment of the vehicle’s speed to exceed posted speed limits.”
If it's not in V11, which satisfied the recall, that wouldn't be the reason in V12. It could just not know what to do....unless you've seen a change in V11 or have seen others report it.
powertoold
Active Member
I haven't really, but again, NHTSA is on Tesla's tail for running yellows, and the recall specifically points it out, so I'm thinking Tesla is erring on stopping for yellows for V12. There's no other logical reason to train it to stop for yellows like that video above, it's not natural human behavior
If much of their data is people stopping or slowing for yellows, it will do the same. it's not illegal to enter an intersection on Yellow and the NHTSA didn't say it was, just that it did it without due caution.
Overall yes in terms of the amount of "thinking" compute for 12.x is probably the same for every single frame no matter whether it's a simple or complex scenario. This is nice in some aspects in that neural networks can be optimized for size and performance to fit the compute budget as opposed to traditional code that might have variable compute requirements if there's logic for checking each lane or vehicle or even worse conditional expensive computation such as picking out certain number of other vehicles to do subsequent neural network behavior predictions.
This can be bad in situations that do want "more thinking" where for large language models, some people have gotten around this by asking "think step by step" and each additional output word is effectively more time to think. There's also research to more directly take on this general problem of thinking fast and thinking slow. If V12 does reach compute bottlenecks and quality still isn't good enough, this type of different thinking architecture could be used to continue progress.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Just an FCW. No braking! Wasn’t clear whether a collision was actually possible with the trajectory at the time (often it is not). Does not seem so since it kept turning in, to make the clearance even tighter. But not sure why it didn’t swing wide like a normal person. Why didn’t the training cover this?
It may not be very human-like, but it is the law in some places. (I think here in Oregon the pedestrian has to be at least a full lane past you before you are allowed to start moving again. So if it is a two lane road that means that the pedestrian has to complete their crossing before you can go.)
The negatives were relatively minor and easily fixed. Did you miss all the amazing positives?
powertoold
Active Member
I think the hesitations at stops are a combination of NHTSA 0mph and also taking into account training examples of other cars running stop signs, so V12 is also checking for cross traffic when it proceeds at stop signs (my speculation).
Plus, for an initial release, I love seeing caution and freezing, I'd much rather see 100 slow starts than 1 scary unlawful and/or dangerous maneuver
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
The problem is the goal is a useful L2 driver assist which does not increase risk of collision. It’s a high bar.
It looks smoother in some ways but fairly clear the comprehension of complicated scenarios just is not going to cut it for L2 in this area. (For a specific example, setting off a FCW which was entirely predictable (to a human), and unnecessarily getting to within a couple feet of a vehicle that could suddenly back up, is not going to work for passengers.)
Long way to go. It’s not about missing the positives - it is probably better in a number of ways - it’s about realizing this is an incremental small change to the system with incremental improvements.
It may have been following the lead car, but the lead car turned sharply to grab a parking place.Just an FCW. No braking! Wasn’t clear whether a collision was actually possible with the trajectory at the time (often it is not). Does not seem so since it kept turning in, to make the clearance even tighter. But not sure why it didn’t swing wide like a normal person. Why didn’t the training cover this?
View attachment 1011852
No. I saw lot's of good stuff. But, I've seen a bunch of Whole Mars videos on V12 that show wonderfulness now. I'm more interested in seeing where the flaws are in anticipation of getting V12 someday (maybe soon?).
As far as the flaws being 'easily fixed', some of these are flaws in V11 that haven't been so easily fixed. And fixing things with E2E may not be so easy, since, as far as I know, it requires curating a bunch of videos showing better performance in this area without worsening performance in other areas. And these are so obvious problems, that you might think that the V12 team would have fixed them before now. Excessive hesitation at stop signs is a long standing problem. If the car can't decide to proceed through an empty intersection, how is it going to handle a high speed ULT? I wish Tesla would push this out to Chuck Cook so I can see how it's going to work on the kinds of roads that I drive.
Unfortunately, almost all of Whole Mars videos are below 30 mph through downtown. I've only seen one brief excursion on a limited access road so far and nothing on suburban high speed secondary roads. Hopefully he'll film a trip to LA soon, or something besides repeated driving in downtown SF.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
FSD has been full of flaws that should be easily fixed yet stubbornly remain. Among the most glaring of these is its inability to stay in a lane and go straight without veering into random turn lanes.
Interestingly, this morning on the way to work in fairly heavy rain FSD also limited me to 60mph. Scrolling up the speed had no effect and popped up a warning about the speed being limited. I was stuck with a max of 60 for probably 15-20 minutes until the rain lightened up and it automatically went back up. I'm on 2023.44.30.8 - 11.4.9. Anybody else seen this before?
It's been doing this for a while since 11.4.7. Sometimes, when it misjudges the weather, it can be really annoying.
Interesting, I hadn't seen this before but haven't been driving with significant weather very much. I thought Mars was calling it out as something different in v12, but appears to be existing behavior.
His behavior was more that FSD would disengage easily during rain with the red hands.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
From Q4 Earnings Call
Elon: "V12 is a complete architectural rewrite compared to prior versions, end-to-end artificial intelligence, so nothing but nets basically, photons in and controls out."
Elon: "We will be rolling out V12 to all customers in the US who request FSD in the weeks to come, that's over 400,000 vehicles in North America"
Elon: "V12 is a complete architectural rewrite compared to prior versions, end-to-end artificial intelligence, so nothing but nets basically, photons in and controls out."
Elon: "We will be rolling out V12 to all customers in the US who request FSD in the weeks to come, that's over 400,000 vehicles in North America"
Elon said V12 would be rolling out to everyone "in the coming weeks". That's better than "in the coming months."
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