FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[gsmith123]

These things seem easy, but many years of engineering and physics-based models have not managed it. Will AI blow our minds?

Yeah the stop sign behavior is so annoying. I mostly just drive them manually nowdays.

I'm inclined to think this is relatively easy in the grand scheme of self driving cars, but Tesla has made virtually no changes to driving policy in V11 (only the perception layer). I'm guessing they're fully committed to V12 at this point and just not bothering to spend any resources on problems like this.

A bit annoying as users, but I can understand the reasoning.

I think I have similar preferences to you: I'd like the car brake more assertively (higher acceleration and jerk, in physics terms). Stop for just long enough. And then punch it.

 

[gsmith123]

The common myth is the stop must be for 3 seconds, and for safe driving (to make sure car is fully settled) up to 5 seconds.

Is that really a myth people believe? lol.

Hopefully Tesla and NHTSA can come to an agreement that something short like 200ms or so is sufficient stoppage time.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

What you perceive (or most people perceive) as an "insane" delay may just be what NHTSA feels is necessary to count as a "complete stop".

It’s relatively easy to document the current behavior via video. The time spent stopped is actually variable, and is sometimes actually marginally acceptable. But most of the time it is not. No need to debate whether or not it is ok or not - just need to quantify it and compare to normal brisk legal human driving.

It’s kind of odd. I don’t think it has anything to do with NHTSA. I suspect the prior rolling stop behavior eliminated by NHTSA recall just masked the decision-making issues or whatever the root cause of the problem is (might not be decision-making issue, no idea).

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I'd like the car brake more assertively (higher acceleration and jerk, in physics terms). Stop for just long enough. And then punch

I specifically want a low-jerk higher acceleration approach to the stop sign, but with possible jerk excursion beyond the nominal regen-only jerk profile around 1mph.

And I don’t want any punching from the stop, exactly. Just a prompt and brisk departure.

I don’t think v12 will do it though. Hopefully if is better if it has been trained appropriately, though.

 

[gsmith123]

Punching it was probably an overstatement.

Roughly 30%-50% accelerator input on Chill mode is what I had in mind.

 

[MP3Mike]

They just required the vehicle to stop, didn’t they? I don’t think any insane delay was required. But maybe I am not fully up to speed on this.

No, as I recall they came back a second time and made Tesla add the delay. (Especially because the display was still registering 1 MPH even though it was at a complete stop. Elon mentioned that even though they showed them a camera view showing that the wheels weren't moving they made them add the delay.) I don't know if NHTSA specified the exact delay, or if Tesla just guessed at what would appease them.

I think the second update, adding the delay, was part of recall 23V085: (The initial running stop sign "fix" was part of recall 22V037.)

As far as I can tell release notes from Tesla only said this, in relation to stop signs:

2. Improved the longitudinal slowdown control profile when leading up to stop sign intersections to make the overall maneuver feel more perceptible and natural.

But it is obvious that NHTSA didn't think the vehicle was staying in a static position long enough, so they made Tesla change it. (Maybe the extra braking at the stop sign is to increase the "perceptibility" of the stop?)

People really need to get past wanting FSDb to drive like they do, especially as it comes to obeying traffic laws. It is never going to drive "naturally" like most humans. (I think it is NHTSA restrictions like this that will be a real problem for full end-to-end NN control.)

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

People really need to get past wanting FSDb to drive like they do, especially as it comes to obeying traffic laws. It is never going to drive "naturally" like most humans.

Again, I think this is relatively easy to quantify, and I think anyone using FSD beta recognizes that the current behavior is outside the norm of legal behavior.

But anyway no need to discuss it - just need video and measurements.

Especially because the display was still registering 1 MPH even though it was at a complete stop. Elon mentioned that even though they showed them a camera view showing that the wheels weren't moving they made them add the delay.)

I think it is relatively easy to see and perceive when the car is at complete stop and compare to the speedometer.

I doubt we can put much stock in what Elon says, unfortunately - he tends to lack precision and accuracy in his public statements.

Again, the current complaint is about the lead up to 0mph and the duration the car remains halted. This can be quite poor at times and outside the norm.

It’s got nothing to do with driving like me. It’s about driving better and more precisely than me - and doing it consistently and with high levels of comfort.

 

[MP3Mike]

I think it is relatively easy to see and perceive when the car is at complete stop and compare to the speedometer.

Obviously NHTSA disagreed, they said it wasn't perceptabled enough, so made Tesla make it more so.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Obviously NHTSA disagreed, they said it wasn't perceptabled enough, so made Tesla make it more so.

Again, as I said, I think it is fairly clear there is more to this issue than compliance with NHTSA. It’s hard to explain stops of one or two seconds (or whatever it is - needs to be measured) that way! I think all FSD beta users have experienced what I am referring to.

There’s also a perceptible jerk when coming to a complete halt when using the correct method. I’m not sure why this solution was not chosen.

We’ll see what their strategy here is for v12. Seems like one of the elements of everyday driving which is a good test of the autonomy solution.

 

[Buckminster]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1740189939936248225

 

[nikolajz1]

I can see them holding back releasing V12 outside of California until after winter.

 

[sleepydoc]

People really need to get past wanting FSDb to drive like they do

This. There is a wide range of acceptable, safe driving styles. Just because they don’t match your preferences doesn’t mean they’re wrong.

Again, as I said, I think it is fairly clear there is more to this issue than compliance with NHTSA. It’s hard to explain stops of one or two seconds (or whatever it is - needs to be measured) that way! I think all FSD beta users have experienced what I am referring to.

IME the actual duration of stoppage is less than a second; it feels longer because most people don’t stop at all.

There’s also a perceptible jerk when coming to a complete halt when using the correct method. I’m not sure why this solution was not chosen.

A jerk doesn’t mean a full stop, just a rapid change in acceleration.

 

[sleepydoc]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1740189939936248225

“Heavy precipitation areas” - it’s hard to test dry wipes when it’s raining!

 

[archae86]

I can see them holding back releasing V12 outside of California until after winter.

Not working in heavy rain is going to catch up with them almost anywhere, unless they successfully coach the user or automatically disable FSDb during heavy rain. We even get heavy rain here in the desert Southwest. I've seen a peak rate on my rain gauge of over 7 inches/per hour here in Albuquerque.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

A jerk doesn’t mean a full stop, just a rapid change in acceleration.

Yes, never said it had anything to do with a stop!!!

There is a wide range of acceptable, safe driving styles. Just because they don’t match your preferences doesn’t mean they’re wrong.

Yes, clarified this.

IME the actual duration of stoppage is less than a second; it feels longer

We definitely need some video captures of what actually happens (a large number of captures since it varies), then can continue this long-running discussion (this should be a separate thread, not sure if there is).

As people know I have a long history of complaining about the experience of FSD accelerating/decelerating (beyond just stop-sign behavior), complaints that were followed by Tesla addressing those specific issues. And now the experience is considerably better (though far from perfect of course). So I'm not just complaining about nothing here just to be a whiner. It's because it's bad.

I don't hear anyone here saying that handles stop signs well in any case, which I think confirms that the concern here is pretty legitimate.

Anyway I am very curious how they will train v12 in this regard and whether the results will be better.

 

[gsmith123]

automatically disable FSDb during heavy rain

That’s absolutely an option. If it’s really struggling in rain, they can program it to disengage any time. It already limits speed in rain.

Although if autowipers have taught us anything they may struggle to detect heavy rain the first place…

 

[KArnold]

is that the car reaches 0mph literally for a split second (like the car reaches 0mph, then immediately moves). This may not be good enough for some law enforcement (as they may miss the exact moment the car is stationary).

Do this on my motorcycle all of the time - complete stop and not even putting a foot down. Serious over zealous and wasteful government agency that needs an overhaul.

 

[EVNow]

Do this on my motorcycle all of the time - complete stop and not even putting a foot down. Serious over zealous and wasteful government agency that needs an overhaul.

The most useless of all things NHTSA has recommended. I mean FSD tries crashing into vehicles in the roundabout quite regularly and they are worried about coming to a full stop ? Just a lunatic / egotistic complaint.

Is there any data evidence that not coming to a full stop results in accidents - as opposed to say overspeeding that Tesla allows ?

 

[mongo]

The most useless of all things NHTSA has recommended. I mean FSD tries crashing into vehicles in the roundabout quite regularly and they are worried about coming to a full stop ? Just a lunatic / egotistic complaint.

Is there any data evidence that not coming to a full stop results in accidents - as opposed to say overspeeding that Tesla allows ?

The difference is that Tesla specifically enabled rolling stops in Oct 2020. NHSTA has a duty to push back in intentional behavior that is in conflict with regulations/ laws.
Roundabout bad behavior is something that Tesla is working to eliminate.

 

[EVNow]

The difference is that Tesla specifically enabled rolling stops in Oct 2020. NHSTA has a duty to push back in intentional behavior that is in conflict with regulations/ laws.
Roundabout bad behavior is something that Tesla is working to eliminate.

Tesla intentionally allowed over speeding too. Why not ban that ?

You are not supposed to travel in left lane unless overtaking (below speed limit) - why not ban that ?

At least allow for a toggle switch that requires driver override to do rolling stops.

BTW, the law is when there is ANY vehicle in a roundabout you are supposed to wait. Tesla clearly recognizes vehicles in the roundabout and still enters. How about banned free right turns that only recently Tesla started following ?

How about not slowing down in school zones !!!!! Or overtaking stopped school buses ?

All these are a lot more important than whether the car comes to a complete stop or a rolling stop.

Nope. Just egotistical.