FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[sleepydoc]

I think that's okay because cars in the outer lane must turn right immediately, they aren't allowed to use it for straight through routing or left turn routing. At least that's my understanding, with the disclaimer that I've never actually driven a multi-lane roundabout myself.

Edit: I guess the Europeans on this forum are snickering at the naivete of USA drivers discussing kindergarten basics of roundabouts!

It depends on the roundabout. For many (most?) full 2 lane roundabouts the right lane is used for turning right or proceeding straight and the left lane is used for proceeding straight, turning left or doing a U turn.

You are correct, but you are still over-complicating it. Read on:

Yep, think of it as a multi-lane 4-way stop. Get in the same lane as you would for a 4-way stop. Yield to any vehicle already in the intersection. Simple as that, but better - because you don't necessarily have to stop, and you have good visibility of traffic already in the roundabout as you approach.

The problem is, a round about is viewed not as an intersection but rather a circular road thad avoids an intersection. Most people I know look at it as the entering cars merging onto the roundabout.

I actually like roundabouts for many situations. They’re often better, safer and more efficient than a traditional intersection. I just wish the literature that the DOT puts out would better explain the issue I described.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

What I’m saying is when turning left, the inner lane should enter the left lane of the 3rd road, not the right lane. You stay in your lane in a roundabout.

To be fair, I can give you two examples of where that is impossible in my city.

We have at least one roundabout where you enter where there is 2 lanes but by the time you get to your exit, it is only one lane. But not everyone realizes one of the lanes isn't going to exit when they get to their exit so there's confusion as in "WTF did that other lane of traffic go?" or "WTF did my lane go?"

This one has 3 exits but in the space that would normally have 2. One enters with 2 lanes but there are no lane markings in the roundabout. If you take #2 when you mean to take #3 or vice versa, you find yourself on a controlled access parkway and a rather long detour. So there's a lot of confusion as people unfamiliar with the roundabout come to a crawl or stop in order to read the road/direction signs while others who know what to do are expecting a flow of traffic in front of them, not stopped cars.

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Conversely, in my second example there is one section where 1 lane disappears in the roundabout and then reappears. To make matters worse, you have to go to the streetview to see the confusion since the google satellite mapping isn't up to date. It is the T-intersection of #32 (an E/W road) with #59 (roughly N/S). At the zoom that would show the lane markings, the imagery is old so you just see a shadow of the roundabout overtop the old satellite view.

For 3/4 of the roundabout, it is 2 lanes. But there is 1/4, between southbound exit and northbound entrance, where it is a single lane.

If going south on #59 intending to turn east on #32, you enter from the left lane (which can also go straight south). Your lane becomes the single lane in the roundabout, until you go past the northbound traffic which has two lanes entering the roundabout and you may now have a car to your right. One has to hope to hell they are following the rules (and lane markings before they entered the roundabout) and are turning east as well. The problem is since you are in one lane and about to exit, you tend to move to the right side of the lane because you are about to exit. Suddenly you are in conflict with northbound people wanting to turn right and no longer in "the correct" lane even though when you started the turn there was only one lane so it was impossible to be in the "wrong" lane.

Here's the streetview, looking north, showing a single lane at the point where the two northbound lanes enter the roundabout.

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In theory, V12.x is reading the road markings and signs before the roundabouts and behaving accordingly. Or, at the very least, learning from previous mistakes, updating its local mapping database and will remember for future trips through these nightmares. From the sound of it, 12.3 isn't in a place to fully exploit the promise of AI learning. On the other hand, it if doesn't, I won't mark it down because it is driving like a human; imperfectly in exceptional circumstances. It is the speed at which it takes the roundabout and its signaling to others which will, at best, make it equivalent to a human driving and make me comfortable with it in these situations.

Aside from exceptional (in a bad way) nightmarish roundabout designs, as one can see from the comments in this thread (and in our local reddit), how to use a roundabout properly is something most drivers don't know.

Even if you are using it properly, and signaling your intentions (left signal on when you enter if you are going straight thru or left, then right signal after you pass the last entry point before your exit), I believe for at least the next generation of drivers (i.e. 20 years) roundabouts with more than one lane will remain a source of confusion and where there is confusion, there is a risk of collision. The advantage of roundabouts is those collisions occur at much slower speeds so damage to life/limb and car are less than when someone blows through a red light. Having lived and driven in England, I'm very much pro-roundabouts especially as a driver. As a pedestrian they often suck since they increase the walking distance. On the other hand, having just watched a pickup blow through a stop sign as I stepped off the curb to cross (and spin his tires as he accelerated through the turn) perhaps I should be thankful for the traffic calming effect they offer.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

It was a very relaxing trip.

Just clarifying: was it relaxing compared to the same conditions in V11, or was it relaxing compared to having to make all the decisions yourself?

 

[SidetrackedSue]

Same here. I was wondering if they hate me now that I stopped paying for the premium connection.

I know you are kidding but if someone is genuinely wondering:

1. we aren't in the US,
2. we pay for premium connection,
3. we don't have wifi at home so thus are not sending feedback on regular basis to Elon,
4. we don't use FSDb except on highways (nearly flawless on divided controlled access, often turn it off on non-divided highways due to diving into turn lanes)
5. I delay installing updates until I determine what damage they may do to my car or my driving experience.

We tend to get offered updates at least in the middle of the pack. The only time there is a delay is because I'm not on the version that is the jumping off point to a newer version. Currently I don't have an offer for V12 because we are not currently on V11.4.9. I'll have to update to that first before being offered V12, but we are not in the US so there is no point in doing so at this point.

I don't think premium connection or any other behaviour move people up or down in the update queue. It is based solely on current software, hardware, location, unless one has connections within tesla.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

You folks just didn't grow up with them so they appear strange. They aren't.

Elsewhere I mentioned our non-straightforward roundabouts but before my city had roundabouts, they had a few "traffic circles" where the rule was that those in the traffic circle yielded to those entering the traffic circle from the road that would have been seen as the 'main' road. So for the first 30+ years of my driving, that was how traffic circles were handled.

Then they were converted to roundabouts (yield to the traffic in the roundabout, not the other way) and there was amazing confusion!

Not quite as bad as the joke about phasing in switching from driving on the left to driving on the right where they had cars switch over one week and trucks the following week. But it does seem true to Canadian values to make converting traffic patterns as confusing as possible since Canada's switch from driving on the left to the right took place over almost 4 years (except for Newfoundland which didn't for another 25 years but it wasn't part of Canada at that point.)

 

[sleepydoc]

Elsewhere I mentioned our non-straightforward roundabouts but before my city had roundabouts, they had a few "traffic circles" where the rule was that those in the traffic circle yielded to those entering the traffic circle from the road that would have been seen as the 'main' road. So for the first 30+ years of my driving, that was how traffic circles were handled.

Then they were converted to roundabouts (yield to the traffic in the roundabout, not the other way) and there was amazing confusion!

Not quite as bad as the joke about phasing in switching from driving on the left to driving on the right where they had cars switch over one week and trucks the following week. But it does seem true to Canadian values to make converting traffic patterns as confusing as possible since Canada's switch from driving on the left to the right took place over almost 4 years (except for Newfoundland which didn't for another 25 years but it wasn't part of Canada at that point.)

You should have copied the swedes and done it overnight!

I’ve always used the terms roundabout and traffic circle interchangeably - this is the first time I’ve seen anyone make a distinction. I actually don’t think roundabouts are that difficult if you know a couple of basic rules. The problem arises when you introduce a totally new traffic control paradigm to people who have been driving for 50+ years with inadequate explanation.

 

[bhakan]

Seems so far that only the Model S seems to be curbing the wheels? Are there any 3/Ys that have curbed the wheels? If only the S (and maybe the X) then since it is such a minority of the cars this would be evidence that the training is mostly off 3/Ys . And the training is very much specific to the car's it is off of.

It is very sharp curve and the car went so fast as it was hunting for the max speed at "auto speed" selection. The driver in the car behind me quickly went to the left lane as my car hit the curb and I disengaged. It was just a fraction of a sec.

8600 MD-355

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[SidetrackedSue]

I’ve always used the terms roundabout and traffic circle interchangeably - this is the first time I’ve seen anyone make a distinction.

So did drivers in my city until the city started installing roundabouts in the suburbs (where there was room to put them in) and we were then 'educated' that there was difference. There was a period of time where there were the two sets of rules. And there are still where drivers exited the roundabout are required to come to a stop for pedestrians crossing in front of them, thus breaking the normal 'rule' of never coming to a stop in a roundabout unless traffic is backed up for some reason. Seriously, some of our roundabouts have the pedestrians yielding to cars exiting, and others have the reverse.

It is no wonder than people here tend to dislike/hate/fear roundabouts. In my mind roundabouts are a wonderful solution, but my city has effed up implementation in ways that those from outside North America would shake their heads at. Even in this thread, there are statements that "one must" but the hard and fast rules don't seem to have been implemented at least in my city. That's why I'll forgive any failure of FSDb in them. I won't trust it, may not even use it once I have it, but not due to programming flaws; the fault lies entirely with my jurisdiction.

 

[mongo]

Not quite... you can go straight from any lane. You go left from the left lane, you go right from the right lane. Just behave as you would at any multi-lane crossroad

It depends on the roundabout. For many (most?) full 2 lane roundabouts the right lane is used for turning right or proceeding straight and the left lane is used for proceeding straight, turning left or doing a U turn.

The situation presented is a car in the outer lane driving alongside a car in the inner lane. In this case, the outer car has already passed one exit, so it must exit to continue straight.
The case of making a right turn is out of scope as there is no conflict (assuming the inner/left lane driver stays in the leftmost lanes)

 

[jabloomf1230]

The problem with this roundabout discussion is that a large number of drivers use the outer lane to use the 3rd exit (left turn equivalent). This choice is consistent with the signage and does create conflicts with drivers using the inner lane to do the same maneuver.

 

[mongo]

The problem with this roundabout discussion is that a large number of drivers use the outer lane to use the 3rd exit (left turn equivalent). This choice is consistent with the signage and does create conflicts with drivers using the inner lane to do the same maneuver.

What signage indicates one can do a left from the outer lane?

 

[rlsd]

Roundabout: It seems it's safe if only cars on the outer lane can exit the roundabout. Cars on the inner lane must continue to circle until they can change lane to the outer lane. But how can cars enter the inner lane without being hit?

 

[drtimhill]

So, after about 20 drives on my test routes Wirth 12.3, here are my observations:

-- Pro: Much more natural driving style, much less reason to worry about drivers behind you wondering "wtf" at you
-- Pro: Overall choice of lanes, negotiation of turns and roundabouts FAR better than V11.
-- Pro: Car actually pulled into my driveway when it got me home (wow)
-- Pro: Speed control, though not perfect., is more natural, car no longer drives like a "fussy student driver" (FSD)
-- Pro: Speed bumps are MUCH better than V11.
-- Pro: Turn signals are finally MUCH more like a (good) human driver.
-- Pro: Lots of potential as Tesla works out the bugs.
-- Con: Lane keeping is unpredictable. Mostly it's fine but sometimes the car drifts VERY close to the lane lines. Not seen this when the other lanes were occupied, but its still jarring.
-- Con: Sometimes after turning left into a two lane road the car will waffle on the choice of lane, and even drive half-way between each lane for some distance before it makes its mind up. Again, I've not seen this when other cars were present, but its a concern.
-- Con: Here in the PNW even light rain seems to trigger "FSD May be degraded" again and again and again (every 1-2 minutes!).
-- Con: As others have noted, the braking is often more harsh than necessary when stopping at a junction.
-- Con: Still using V11 stack for highways, with all that implies (bad merges, getting to exit lane too late etc).

Overall I'd give the car 7/10, whereas V11 never got much better than 5/10.

 

[drtimhill]

Roundabout: It seems it's safe if only cars on the outer lane can exit the roundabout. Cars on the inner lane must continue to circle until they can change lane to the outer lane. But how can cars enter the inner lane without being hit?

You enter the outer lane and then merge into the inner lane. Just like a 3-lane road.

 

[mgs333]

Geez we're still talking about roundabouts?

 

[Cherry Wine]

Something is going on at Tesla
2024 code with FSD 11 has been sitting for a few weeks
2023 code with FSD 12 the same
Might we have the merge soon?
Enabling v12.3/4 for all

FWIW, I messaged Teslascope on Twitter and their expectation was the 2024.X branch merge would happen within a couple of weeks.

 

[kabin]

I thought this one was fixed. I experienced my first attempted red light run on a right hand turn.

 

[primedive]

Roundabout: It seems it's safe if only cars on the outer lane can exit the roundabout. Cars on the inner lane must continue to circle until they can change lane to the outer lane. But how can cars enter the inner lane without being hit?

There’s no need to change lane inside the roundabout, just as you don’t change lane inside a square intersection. See this video and start at 0:50:

 

[KLam]

Geez we're still talking about roundabouts?

It seems more Tesla FSDb do the worst it gets with so many different opinions. All I want is a reasonable assist that keeps the current lane and stop at stop signs and signals. I will do the lane change, do the turns, merge into freeway, enter and exit traffic circles by myself and turn on the signals myself!

The acceleration, deceleration, follow distance, etc. are always "broken" simply because of different preferences. Just make those select able parameters!

 

[Dewg]

It seems more Tesla FSDb do the worst it gets with so many different opinions. All I want is a reasonable assist that keeps the current lane and stop at stop signs and signals. I will do the lane change, do the turns, merge into freeway, enter and exit traffic circles by myself and turn on the signals myself!

I do this pretty frequently when doing quick around-the-town chores. I enable MLC, and just don't put a destination in nav. I enable FSD Beta in a lane and it just stays in that lane, handling the driving for me. When I need to make a turn, as long as the turn lane is dedicated, I use the turn signal manually to move into that lane, and the car makes the turn for me.