FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[rlsd]

It works fine here in NorCal for me. Early 2020 MYLR.

It never works if the lights are on the low left side or low right side of 2 lane clover leaf ramps to freeway.

It works sometimes when the lights are up high in front of the car on straight ramps.

 

[Mardak]

I've switched back to AUTO set speed as more often 12.3.3 correctly goes the faster speed that other vehicles are going than the times when I need to manually slow it down. With 11.x, I've needed to adjust the speed up when turning from a residential street and map data incorrectly believes the speed limit is still 25mph, and similarly where it believes the limit is 30mph, people often drive 40mph+ on an overpass/bridge, but setting to the max +30% manual offset (still "only" 39mph) would be too fast in most other situations (for 11.x). Independent of manual or automatic, 12.x has been great in picking lower speeds turning into residential areas as well as slowing down back to 35mph when the bridge ends.

 

[sleepydoc]

NHTSA requires car to stop at the stop. Not 5 feet to 10 feet before.

When I use the term ‘NHTSA stop’ I use it to mean coming to a full stop at or slightly behind the line. What you describe is something else.

Personally I haven’t had issues with it stopping significantly behind the line.

 

[arnolddeleon]

Our Y was having issues with USB so I took it in for service.

Unlike, last weeks loaner which FSD beta, this weeks loaner didn't have FSD enabled and it had ancient software. I missed having FSD beta/supervised.

Service had noted driving computer errors so they replaced that as part of the service. The car was returned with older software (I forgot to note what it was but it 2023 based with 11.4.9). I didn't get a chance to relive that version because the cameras needed calibration. Once I got home, the car was telling me software was available and I needed to connect to WiFi.

Replacing the driving computer seems to have caused it to forget the WiFi settings. Once I got connected it started downloading new software. I was surprised to discover that the "new software" it downloaded is has 12.3.1 instead of 12.3.3 which we previously had. It is definitely 2033 based again.

I don't know if that means anything. Did Tesla decide that 12.3.1 was better than 12.3.3?

 

[JulienW]

Elon says (not) you get a robotaxi and (not) you get a robotaxi.

 

[sleepydoc]

Our Y was having issues with USB so I took it in for service.

Unlike, last weeks loaner which FSD beta, this weeks loaner didn't have FSD enabled and it had ancient software. I missed having FSD beta/supervised.

Service had noted driving computer errors so they replaced that as part of the service. The car was returned with older software (I forgot to note what it was but it 2023 based with 11.4.9). I didn't get a chance to relive that version because the cameras needed calibration. Once I got home, the car was telling me software was available and I needed to connect to WiFi.

Replacing the driving computer seems to have caused it to forget the WiFi settings. Once I got connected it started downloading new software. I was surprised to discover that the "new software" it downloaded is has 12.3.1 instead of 12.3.3 which we previously had. It is definitely 2033 based again.

I don't know if that means anything. Did Tesla decide that 12.3.1 was better than 12.3.3?

Or that the difference between 12.3.3 and 12.3.1 has to do with the computer itself.

 

[Todd Burch]

I notice this variability a lot and have been trying to figure out what's different. My best guess is a lead car.

Is it possible there is a lead car even if it's far away?

There was no traffic around whatsoever in both cases, which is why I was surprised it went closer to the correct speed this time.

Now in theory Tesla could be taking accelerator feedback and adjusting speed targets on map data autonomously, but I doubt they’re doing that now.

 

[Mardak]

You've left out the fact that Tesla also uses simulations to train FSD

My assumption has been that they are using tons of simulated stops, in order to program the fundamental stop-sign behavior and achieve the non-human-like profile.

Has Tesla said they use simulations for training end-to-end? Just because something like complete stops is rare (~0.5% per Ashok Elluswamy during the V12 livestream from August), given Tesla's fleet performing say even 1 million stops a day is still 5000 examples/day. Unclear how many examples are needed to adjust the behavior across a variety of situations, and we've still seen 12.x treat stops as yields. Maybe this will be addressed in later 12.x with data collected from brake disengagements? (Although I suspect many people are actually pressing the accelerator to go through stops faster/smoother.)

We've also seen Tesla paid drivers testing and potentially collecting data for unprotected left turns. Presumably these too could be using simulation to train FSD, but maybe these drivers are also making full stops at other intersections to train end-to-end as well?

 

[Tronguy]

On the freeway the old v11 behavior is in effect, just FYI. It will go to your set speed, that is what it does.

They're not the same - the max limit is different. But let me know what differences you observe if you ever get a chance to look into it.

Um. I said,

'The MY has the adaptive speed setting set. Contrary to other opinions around here, this does not cause Immediate Death, Destruction, And Explosions Of All Cars (including mine) in the vicinity. Um. The car kept up with traffic, with which there was lots.'

You appeared to take that as meaning, "On highways", where, in the previous paragraph, I had said, "When going to Superchargers on local roads."

I'm perfectly aware that the ~11.4.x freeway stack is running in highways; but I've got auto MAX set, which kicks in on all those local roads.

After most of another full day of driving with that setup, I repeat: No problems with the Auto on local roads, both in getting to and from Superchargers from highways and, now, after doing a fair amount of driving in and around Dallas, off of highways.

Despite your's and other's complaints on the subject, the car mostly speeds up somewhat faster than the speed limit, keeping up with local traffic, and occasionally goes slower than the speed limit, especially when hunting around on local roads with big cars (a Texas specialty) both parked on the side and coming at one. So far, no beeps from irritated other drivers; and the extra passengers in the car didn't realize that the car was doing most of the driving until it's still-somewhat-abnormal behavior at stop signs.

Today, at one point, on the left lane of a two-lane 75 mph highway, passing a semi, said semi rather abruptly put its left turn signal on so it could get around a much slower semi tractor (sans trailer). In order to get out of the turning semi's way, I gassed it a bit and went past 85. That caused a disengagement and a "no more autopilot for YOU! this drive" complaint from the car.

In a way, no problem: I just drove to the next planned stop, some 30 miles or so up. But, on the other hand.. When on any kind of Tesla autopilot, the minutia of keeping in lane, keeping one's speed steady, and passing cars is Just Taken Care Of, leaving one to supervise and look out for out-of-control semis and other cars. It's not impossible to do it oneself, or course: For decades, that's what I did. But I'm convinced that it's safer to have all that tech turned on; it's certainly less stress.

To me, that seems doubly true on local roads. Three narrow lanes with Big Vehicles in all three, chugging along at 35-45 without a whole lot of clearance either side, over hills and down dales- and SFSD Just Handled It without weirdnesses. And not a peep from any of the passengers.

Final note: Bluebonnets are in bloom all over Texas. The SO likes them.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Personally I haven’t had issues with it stopping significantly behind the line.

Interesting. Chuck’s somewhat new Y seems to stop well behind the line. It is weird that some vehicles go to the line, meaning within 3 feet.

You appeared to take that as meaning, "On highways", where, in the previous paragraph, I had said, "When going to Superchargers on local roads."

No I did not take that. I figured you drove on surface streets as well, where the behavior is different as you describe.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I've switched back to AUTO set speed as more often 12.3.3 correctly goes the faster speed that other vehicles are going than the times when I need to manually slow it down.

Do you find that manual mode doesn’t do this then?

I’ve still not been able to find any difference between the two modes when I swap back and forth other than the set speed. I am looking for a scenario I can try to observe the difference. It sounds like maybe I should try and see what happens if the car is tracking faster lead traffic? In theory if I switch to manual mode it will just give up and get left in the dust?

 

[JulienW]

Interesting. Chuck’s somewhat new Y seems to stop well behind the line. It is weird that some vehicles go to the line, meaning within 3 feet. ...

It is HW3 I believe. Also can you imagine the conniption fit Elon throw after seeing Chuck's video especially after the several $10Ks Tesla has spent driving/researching that turn? He has to be livid.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

It is HW3 I believe. Also can you imagine the conniption fit Elon throw after seeing Chuck's video especially after the several $10Ks Tesla has spent driving/researching that turn? He has to be livid.

Maybe that was a key advancement of HW4; the ability to predict the line location after it goes out of view.

 

[JulienW]

Maybe that was a key advancement of HW4, the ability to predict the line location after it goes out of view.

Elon claims HW4 is just emulating HW3 as of now.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Elon claims HW4 is just emulation HW3 as of now.

Arrgh; always with the excellent arguments. Maybe it is camera calibration. I’ll calibrate my cameras and be a legend. Not sure how I will survive without FSDS.

There is also the argument that v11 on HW3 was able to accomplish this feat.

 

[Dewg]

True but in this case it's really the other way around. We aren't neophytes. We have been driving for years, refined our craft, know the rules of the road, understand driver etiquette, aware of environmental context, can read signs and nonverbal cues, and expect a certain level of driving comfort. We have certain and specific expectations for FSD beyond that short lived first time excitement of driving in an FSD vehicle.

In your description we're comparing human to human - like your driving vs your Uber driver's driving. Since computers driving is a relatively new technology, I'm talking about that experience. We've never had a computer drive for us before (beyond cruise control and adaptive cruise control) on city streets, so we're talking about that experience and how it's evolved. What was impressive in previous versions becomes common place, and a new release expands on it, smoothing it out, or changing the experience in a positive way. So we compare to previous versions and find them lacking in comparison.

Apples = human driver
Oranges = computer driver

 

[Dewg]

In my case, it slammed on the brakes when I was probably less than a second from the stop line. It managed to stop beyond the stop line, but before the painted crosswalk. I'm glad that the driver behind me in the left turn lane was paying close attention.

Your case sounds more like a mistake and less like what others are discussing - which is yellow lights cause the car to immediately start to slow down when normally they would have proceeded through the intersection. Your case seems like the car didn't notice the yellow and then panicked stopped late.

 

[kabin]

It works fine here in NorCal for me. Early 2020 MYLR.

That's good it works sometimes. I recall seeing a v12 video from MissJillyBoBillyFlatus (NorCal) running a ramp red light. It didn't seem to recognize it.

 

[kabin]

In your description we're comparing human to human - like your driving vs your Uber driver's driving. Since computers driving is a relatively new technology, I'm talking about that experience. We've never had a computer drive for us before (beyond cruise control and adaptive cruise control) on city streets, so we're talking about that experience and how it's evolved. What was impressive in previous versions becomes common place, and a new release expands on it, smoothing it out, or changing the experience in a positive way. So we compare to previous versions and find them lacking in comparison.

Apples = human driver
Oranges = computer driver

No, I was comparing a skilled human driver to FSD. Not sure how I would compare a human driver to human driver when talking about FSD.

 

[drtimhill]

For identical streets, speed limits in Oregon and Washington tend to be 10-15mph posted speed limits. I think that makes speeding more likely, even though ASSO & Manual mode take speed limits into account somehow.

Ah ok, so you're saying you need to move to Washington then