Help me decide: Model Y or Mach-E

[guyofthesky]

Uggghhh!!!! I promised myself I wasn't going to post again, but against my better judgement, here I am again... Yes OxBrew, I saw the article you posted. Twice. Within the same 24 hour period. I know you really wanted to be sure I saw that click-baity article you posted. I can't say I was all that impressed. Damning it is not. So the author "reverse-engineered" the battery conductive thermal path based on a YouTube screen shot from a Sandy Munro video, and then came up with a table of made up "thermal bottleneck score" numbers to provide evidence for his hypothesis about some performance issues he read about the Mach E on the internet. Apparently he is able to spot an engineering defect just by creating a simple math model from pictures in a YouTube video which the engineers at LG with their fancy finite element models missed. Is he correct? It certainly is possible, but his analysis is based on a pretty flimsy set of data, and he doesn't even share his math. As such, I am not going to draw any hard conclusions from this one-dimensional analysis. What matters to me is how the car performs in the field. Yes, there are indeed some reports of reduced acceleration during "aggressive track-style driving." But I don't drive like that, so why should it weigh into my decision? And the slower DC fast charging rates? These have been noted too. Not a deal-breaker for me since I will be doing most of my charging at home. And honestly, it's not that much slower than Tesla. Anyway, Ford is promising an update to improve the charging curve. The slower charging curve has been attributed to Ford being more conservative, not because of some defect in their thermal design. I do enjoy studying the engineering that goes into these vehicles, and have seen and enjoyed all of Sandy Munro's videos on the Ford and Tesla (please don't send me the "thermal nightmare" video, yes I've seen that one too). But that insideevs article? Pretty thin gruel.

Regarding your comment about the Mach-E battery being "identical to the Chevy Bolt that is currently under 100% recall," that's just pure FUD. The article you forwarded states that the two battery packs use the "same conceptual architecture" but you go a step further and claim they are "identical" and then lump them together with the Chevy Bolt recall. What are you trying to imply? That if I buy the Mach E my house will burn down? Because that is what I think I am meant to infer from your post.

Ok, this sock puppet is signing out. Hopefully for real this time!

I now have a little over 20k miles on the FE Mach E (AWD, big battery). I like the car a lot. Charging rates start at about 125 kw and taper to 80-90 kw at maybe 70% SOC. It corners well, is reasonably quick but not stupid fast, is quiet and comfortable. No issues so far mechanically. I get a lot of "thumbs up" on the road. It has a high quality build, and there are Ford dealers in a lot of places. Not all Ford dealers are EV certified, so check that if you care about dealer network...

I believe Tesla makes a fine car, if you can, I suggest driving both of them, ideally for an hour or two.

EA's charging network isn't yet as good as the Tesla Supercharger network, but it works fine and is getting bigger and better quickly. The recently passed infrastructure bill has $7.5 billion in it for EV charging, and that's a lot: EA hasn't yet spent $3b on their network, so $7.5b added in will be significant. Also, I believe that Tesla will open up their network to we CCS users, because that will allow Tesla to get some of that $7.5b. But Tesla hasn't done that yet...

Either car is a good choice. I am very happy with my choice. fwis

 

[guyofthesky]

I now have a little over 20k miles on the FE Mach E (AWD, big battery). I like the car a lot. Charging rates start at about 125 kw and taper to 80-90 kw at maybe 70% SOC. It corners well, is reasonably quick but not stupid fast, is quiet and comfortable. No issues so far mechanically. I get a lot of "thumbs up" on the road. It has a high quality build, and there are Ford dealers in a lot of places. Not all Ford dealers are EV certified, so check that if you care about dealer network...

I believe Tesla makes a fine car, if you can, I suggest driving both of them, ideally for an hour or two.

EA's charging network isn't yet as good as the Tesla Supercharger network, but it works fine and is getting bigger and better quickly. The recently passed infrastructure bill has $7.5 billion in it for EV charging, and that's a lot: EA hasn't yet spent $3b on their network, so $7.5b added in will be significant. Also, I believe that Tesla will open up their network to we CCS users, because that will allow Tesla to get some of that $7.5b. But Tesla hasn't done that yet...

Either car is a good choice. I am very happy with my choice. fwis

fwiw. oops...

 

[OxBrew]

which the engineers at LG with their fancy finite element models missed. Is he correct? It certainly is possible, but his analysis is based on a pretty flimsy set of data, and he doesn't even share his math.

Don't get me started on thermal issues with batteries that LG engineers missed. They had to issue mandatory shut down orders to 100% of stationary storage in Korea (and strongly suggested shut down in rest of world as well) a couple years ago due to 4% of sites catching on fire (air cooled different, except not that different). Still used a flat plate heat sink on the edge with fins between every other pouch cell.

But sure, if you keep a car 2-3 years, it will probably be fine, especially if you rarely launch full throttle.

So yeah, about the article: I only used the information to confirm they are still using an inferior cooling design that I already know is fatally flawed. I worked on an engineering team that studied all the ways all the companies (like ~50 different designs) are cooling modules, and designed and tested module level cooling solutions for this exact configuration of cells. We modeled the heat extraction at the cell level, and calibrated our models to real world test results. This strategy can work for low current long duration stationary storage, but not high current mobile modules, just does not reject enough heat fast enough.

By identical to Chevy Bolt, I just mean it shares the identical design flaws, the biggest being the existence of a plastic layer between the cell edge and the flat cooling plate. Even with good contact there, you still get heat gradients across the cells. That means one side is hotter than the other under load. Different rates of thermal expansion in the different layers in the cell leads to early degradation, for several reasons.

Apologies for my tone earlier, it was uncalled for.

 

[jjgg]

I raised this point to my Ford salesman, and he pulled a Tesla supercharger adapter for the Mach-E from his desk and stated that it could be used at Tesla superchargers. I haven't done any research to see if this was true. At any rate, 99% of my charging will be in my own garage, so the supercharger network isn't really going to be the deciding factor for me.

I would rather dealing with Tesla's sales website without a real person to reach, than Ford dealerships full of such salesman (either unknowledgeable or intentionally misleading). So my choice would be obvious.

 

[scoobybri]

Don't get me started on thermal issues with batteries that LG engineers missed. They had to issue mandatory shut down orders to 100% of stationary storage in Korea (and strongly suggested shut down in rest of world as well) a couple years ago due to 4% of sites catching on fire (air cooled different, except not that different). Still used a flat plate heat sink on the edge with fins between every other pouch cell.

But sure, if you keep a car 2-3 years, it will probably be fine, especially if you rarely launch full throttle.

So yeah, about the article: I only used the information to confirm they are still using an inferior cooling design that I already know is fatally flawed. I worked on an engineering team that studied all the ways all the companies (like ~50 different designs) are cooling modules, and designed and tested module level cooling solutions for this exact configuration of cells. We modeled the heat extraction at the cell level, and calibrated our models to real world test results. This strategy can work for low current long duration stationary storage, but not high current mobile modules, just does not reject enough heat fast enough.

By identical to Chevy Bolt, I just mean it shares the identical design flaws, the biggest being the existence of a plastic layer between the cell edge and the flat cooling plate. Even with good contact there, you still get heat gradients across the cells. That means one side is hotter than the other under load. Different rates of thermal expansion in the different layers in the cell leads to early degradation, for several reasons.

Apologies for my tone earlier, it was uncalled for.

LG batteries are the entire reason I didn't consider the Mach-E or the ID4. After seeing the Kona recall (77,000 batteries replaced), having GM buy back a Bolt from me (140,000 batteries replaced), and the stationary storage issues, it is clear LG's battery design has flaws in both the cooling and manufacturing processes. I know, the defects are only present in a very small percentage of cars BUT GM/Hyundai/LG have no way of determining which cars have the defect. The risk of fire is small but when there is a fire, it is catastrophic. Two of the higher profile models of EVs have had to had their entire fleet's batteries replaced in the past 2 years because of LG battery defects. That tells me that LGs current pouch battery design has issues. The same battery design is being used in the Mach-E and ID4. So, as a ex-Bolt owner who lived through almost a year of GM's stumbling attempt of a battery recall, I went with Tesla because they have a history of good battery design. Yes, there have been fires but those fires have been random problems, not a systematic issue with manufacturing or design.

 

[WADan]

Ford CEO praises Tesla in internal meeting: 'No one does electric better' — Electrek

Ford CEO Jim Farley has praised Tesla in a recent internal meeting and he didn’t mince his words about the EV space.

apple.news

He was talking about all the hoses. LOL.

 

[sleepydoc]

LG batteries are the entire reason I didn't consider the Mach-E or the ID4. After seeing the Kona recall (77,000 batteries replaced), having GM buy back a Bolt from me (140,000 batteries replaced), and the stationary storage issues, it is clear LG's battery design has flaws in both the cooling and manufacturing processes. I know, the defects are only present in a very small percentage of cars BUT GM/Hyundai/LG have no way of determining which cars have the defect. The risk of fire is small but when there is a fire, it is catastrophic. Two of the higher profile models of EVs have had to had their entire fleet's batteries replaced in the past 2 years because of LG battery defects. That tells me that LGs current pouch battery design has issues. The same battery design is being used in the Mach-E and ID4. So, as a ex-Bolt owner who lived through almost a year of GM's stumbling attempt of a battery recall, I went with Tesla because they have a history of good battery design. Yes, there have been fires but those fires have been random problems, not a systematic issue with manufacturing or design.

I would do the same. While I appreciate a good warranty, I'd rather not need the warranty. Even if something like a battery replacement is covered, the hassle of having to deal with it is more than I want.

On a related note, I saw a Mach E on the road earlier today and it wasn't burning, so that's a good sign!

 

[Tha_Ape]

My friend got his MME GT Performance Edition the other day. I got to check it out (just visually, we didnt go for a drive... that'll be later). Its a pretty car. The "grabber" blue pops. The light up emblem in the grill is a nice touch. Also nice is that it projects a mustang onto the ground as you walk up. Compared to my MY, its a more traditional car. Its nice, seems well put together, tons of buttons everywhere. The UI wasnt incredibly impressive, but it wasnt really bad either. I still think Tesla is the gold standard there. When I got back in my MY, the screen was buttery smooth and responsive.

I do like how the interior lighting can change based on what settings you pick. Phone integration seemed to work just as well (I thought from videos you could only open the frunk from inside the car, but you can do it from the app. It had a weird 3 step opening process that made it seem like there was an extra step in the mechanical latching. Just made an extra sound. Not a bad thing, just a feature. The frunk was a little smaller and honestly wouldnt have fit my needs as much as the Teslas (I'm an edge case and had a specific set of equipment I wanted up there). Otherwise it looked nice and useful. Drain hole was a nice touch. Honestly makes me wonder how hard it would be to drill a hole in my frunk tub, put in fitting and attach a hose to direct it out of the bottom.

Opening the charge port was more manual than the tesla. The Tesla seems more futuristic, the MME seems like an EV with traditional car mechanisms.

Its definitely more unique in that you dont see them everywhere. I went to a mall the other day and saw 3 Model Y's within 10 spaces of one another. Its like the Honda Accord of EVs in its ubiquity, plus it looks so much like the Model 3, it just blends in. The MME stands out.

 

[john5520]

^^Race him, you'll beat him in the quarter with your LR +AB. Hell, you'll probably beat him 0-60.

Phone integration seemed to work just as well

You're like one of the few people I heard say that. Judging from their forums, FordPass is no where near as reliable as the Tesla App. You probably caught it when it worked. The only thing I like about FordPass is the ability to schedule a trip in the app and have it show up in the Nav. This should be elementary for Tesla to add.

 

[OxBrew]

^^Race him, you'll beat him in the quarter with your LR +AB. Hell, you'll probably beat him 0-60.




You're like one of the few people I heard say that. Judging from their forums, FordPass is no where near as reliable as the Tesla App. You probably caught it when it worked. The only thing I like about FordPass is the ability to schedule a trip in the app and have it show up in the Nav. This should be elementary for Tesla to add.

You can easily send destinations to the car with google maps, they pop up in the navigation automatically, works really well. Not sure what the scheduling bit is you mentioned with the Ford.

 

[WhiteWi]

Apple Maps too

 

[john5520]

You can easily send destinations to the car with google maps, they pop up in the navigation automatically, works really well. Not sure what the scheduling bit is you mentioned with the Ford.

This is what I was referring to:

Trip planner. It would be nice to plan out the routes on the phone and just send it to the car.

 

[WhiteWi]

Looks like a pain in ass.

 

[thesmokingman]

Looks like a pain in ass.

And the best part is half of the chargers it finds for the route are broken, lol.

 

[john5520]

Yeah well, it's Ford. It's still a good idea though. My friend's AMG had the same feature.

 

[Stavinski]

Get the Mach E. There are too many model ys. I don't look unique driving my model y anymore. Lol

Nobody goes there any more. It’s too crowded. This right here tells you what you need to know. Yesterday my wife and I were debating my next vehicle and she suggested a large SUV that could tow. I said she could get a large SUV of her choice and I will drive the Y, or I’m getting a pickup truck if I’m getting a big thing that can tow. She made it very clear the Y is hers. And off limits for discussion of who will be driving it. Guess we’re going to have 2 Tesla’s! How many people have 2 Mach E? Must be someone somewhere… two Tesla households are common.

 

[mrwug]

Nobody goes there any more. It’s too crowded. This right here tells you what you need to know. Yesterday my wife and I were debating my next vehicle and she suggested a large SUV that could tow. I said she could get a large SUV of her choice and I will drive the Y, or I’m getting a pickup truck if I’m getting a big thing that can tow. She made it very clear the Y is hers. And off limits for discussion of who will be driving it. Guess we’re going to have 2 Tesla’s! How many people have 2 Mach E? Must be someone somewhere… two Tesla households are common.

Made me think of the line "their appeal has become more selective".

 

[sleepydoc]

This is what I was referring to:

Trip planner. It would be nice to plan out the routes on the phone and just send it to the car.

That's another reason CarPlay would be nice - you could use A Better Route Planner on both your phone and your car.

It would also be nice if Tesla made the map available on the Tesla App.

 

[scoobybri]

As a Chevy Bolt owner for almost 5 years prior to going "all Tesla" the following video sums up charging on non-Supercharger cars for me. This exact scenario happened to me many times. Multiple broken chargers, bad charging speeds, payment systems down, not to mention having to have a different app/rfid card for every different charging network. The Supercharging network of Tesla is a game changer for long distance traveling.

 

[tm1v2]

As a Chevy Bolt owner for almost 5 years prior to going "all Tesla" the following video sums up charging on non-Supercharger cars for me. This exact scenario happened to me many times. Multiple broken chargers, bad charging speeds, payment systems down, not to mention having to have a different app/rfid card for every different charging network. The Supercharging network of Tesla is a game changer for long distance traveling.

That is the biggest reason I bought a second Tesla instead of a different brand EV. I don't want to go backwards in road tripping experience.