Is FSD refundable

[Dewg]

All fair points but the FSD price is ridiculous since the car doesn’t actually Full Self Drive and probably never will during the time of ownership. If they marketed it as some assisted driving in perpetual beta for $1500 it would be more accurate and acceptable.

And if Disneyland cost $20 per day, it would be more accurate for the joy it brings, and an acceptable price given the massive lines and wait times for rides.

However, you and I don't get to set the price in a free market - the market gets to set the price whether we like it or not.

 

[Pat67]

It's a free market, and pricing is set by that market. It's the reason your house goes up in value, and the reason gasoline prices change constantly. Supply and Demand.

Your comment seems to ignore this fact. Based on it, you must believe anything priced over your personal "threshold" is ridiculous and anyone that purchases anything over that threshold is insane or wasting money.

I hope you can evolve your understanding and see how the free market works - why goods and services are priced the way they are, and how everything fits together to create our society. How that "ridiculous" price goes towards paying programmers, engineers, and assembly workers so they can afford to buy goods and services for their families - which in turn allows those companies to pay their employees so they can provide for their families, and so on down the line. It also helps raise the stock value for Tesla, which brings money into the investment accounts of countless people. Some of these people are counting on that investment for their retirement (401K, 403B, etc), are using that investment to help save for a down payment for their first house, or yes for the rich who are using it to buy private jets and yachts (which again pays employees who build them).

So be careful about saying something is ridiculously priced - it's priced right where the market says it should be.

Your comment is well received as well as everyone else's. I would just say why stop at 12,000 take it to 15-20,000. Would everyone still have the same opinions? It is a free market after all. I feel if you can afford 12,000 what's another 3,000 to you. Don't hate me its just my opinion.

 

[Knightshade]

Your comment is well received as well as everyone else's. I would just say why stop at 12,000 take it to 15-20,000.

Elon has already told you that's going to keep increasing. Multiple times. If you don't like the price now you're really not gonna like it later.

 

[raptor5244]

And if Disneyland cost $20 per day, it would be more accurate for the joy it brings, and an acceptable price given the massive lines and wait times for rides.

As it relates to Disney, we know we are going to be miserable but we do it for the kids.

 

[raptor5244]

Your comment is well received as well as everyone else's. I would just say why stop at 12,000 take it to 15-20,000. Would everyone still have the same opinions? It is a free market after all. I feel if you can afford 12,000 what's another 3,000 to you. Don't hate me its just my opinion.

I feel the same. So, let's assume the software actually enabled true full self driving. I mean you get in the car enter the location and sit back and babysit as it pulls out of your garage and drives you to the store, navigates a parking lot finds a spot, etc. I am really curious how much that is worth vs.calling an Uber or something? And if you have tons of money and hate driving, why not just hire a full time driver and a ride around in a big cushy Cadillac Escalade or something?

I think they just keep raising the price because the take rate is dropping and they need to keep funding the FSD dev team. It would make more sense to bury the FSD dev cost into the price of the car itself. Add $1k per vehicle and multiply that by the total vehicles sold vs. just 10% with FSD.

 

[Knightshade]

I think they just keep raising the price because the take rate is dropping and they need to keep funding the FSD dev team.

Tesla has 17 billion in cash sitting around, and massive quarterly free cash flow. FSD revenue (especially when they don't even get to recognize all of it until it's finished) is barely a rounding error on the quarterly finances at this point. So that is a nonsensical theory.

 

[raptor5244]

Tesla has 17 billion in cash sitting around, and massive quarterly free cash flow. FSD revenue (especially when they don't even get to recognize all of it until it's finished) is barely a rounding error on the quarterly finances at this point. So that is a nonsensical theory.

Good point, I don't think money is going to solve the FSD challenge. I was just thinking from a business perspective, rather than charging $12k with a 10% take rate, why not bury $1,500 into each vehicle and include it as a standard feature? If they sell 1M vehicles, then they could recognize $1.5B in revenue vs. some portion of $1.2B assuming a 10% FSD take rate.

 

[Bouba]

The impression I get from Mr Musk’s communications is that he thinks a L4/5 FSD is worth $100,000...so think of $12,000 as a good investment..and let’s be honest..Mr Musk’s track record of making early investors a huge return is very reassuring

 

[raptor5244]

The impression I get from Mr Musk’s communications is that he thinks a L4/5 FSD is worth $100,000...so think of $12,000 as a good investment..and let’s be honest..Mr Musk’s track record of making early investors a huge return is very reassuring

That is the conflicting message. On one hand you have Tesla saying we want to make the world safer for everyone and FSD is the way to do that but on the other hand FSD it is $12k and rising and will be worth $100k so only the wealthy will be able to afford such a feature? Sounds like greed to me. Why stop at $100k for self driving? Market it to the ultra wealthy that buy jets and yachts for $1M.

When it comes to technology like this the price always comes down as more competition enters the market. The cameras, computers, etc. will become more capable and less expensive over time. Let's face it, the car is not going to "full self drive" anytime soon so all the competition needs to offer are the useful features like auto lane keeping, dynamic cruise control, etc. to compete.

 

[Bouba]

That is the conflict message. On one hand you have Tesla saying we want to make the world safer for everyone and FSD is the way to do that but on the other hand FSD it is $12k and rising and will be worth $100k so only the wealthy will be able to afford such a feature? Sounds like greed to me. Why stop at $100k for self driving? Market it to the ultra wealthy that buy jets and yachts for $1M.

When it comes to technology like this the price always comes down as more competition enters the market. The cameras, computers, etc. will becomes more capable and less expensive over time. Let's face it, the car is not going to "full self drive" anytime soon so all the competition needs to offer are the useful features like auto lane keeping, dynamic cruise control, etc. to compete.

All the safety features are included with the car in Autopilot

 

[raptor5244]

Yep, same safety features found on a $20k Toyota Corolla and includes Rear Cross Traffic Alert and arguably a better implementation of Blind Spot Monitoring. Auto Lane Keeping with Autosteer and Dynamic Cruise Control already exist as well in the market. So, FSD is really NoA or some flavor of beta that only a select few have access to, which has mixed reviews. The question is really how much is this FSD really worth if you ignore the FOMO, hype, etc.? Tesla is saying $12k or $199 per month. Time will tell. I am betting on it going back down in price. You can see what the value is on the used market, like $500 the last time I checked it.

 

[Bouba]

Yep, same safety features found on a $20k Toyota Corolla and includes Rear Cross Traffic Alert and arguably a better implementation of Blind Spot Monitoring. Auto Lane Keeping with Autosteer and Dynamic Cruise Control already exist as well in the market. So, FSD is really NoA or some flavor of beta that only a select few have access to, which has mixed reviews. The question is really how much is this FSD really worth if you ignore the FOMO, hype, etc.? Tesla is saying $12k or $199 per month. Time will tell. I am betting on it going back down in price. You can see what the value is on the used market, like $500 the last time I checked it.

I am hoping that FSD will one day be transferable.....but the most hopeful outcome is...my 50k car will be worth 30k when I sell it..but..the included FSD that I bought for 10k will be worth 20k

 

[Suns_PSD]

FSD will be worth $12K once Tesla Auto Insurance is essentially included for free for the lifetime of the car with every purchase because it's proven to make driving so much safer.

Maybe a small fee for Uninsured motorist & hail damage.

Drastically lowered Insurance rates are the required proof of effective FSD.

 

[gearchruncher]

Elon has already told you that's going to keep increasing.

Elon has said a lot of things, many of which have not come true

 

[gearchruncher]

The impression I get from Mr Musk’s communications is that he thinks a L4/5 FSD is worth $100,000...so think of $12,000 as a good investment..and let’s be honest..Mr Musk’s track record of making early investors a huge return is very reassuring

Remember, as @Knightshade said- you ARE NOT BUYING L4/L5 for $12K.

All you are "promised" for that money is L2 City Streets Autosteer "coming soon". Tesla can happily charge more for L3+ capability, given "Full Self Driving" is just a name and the feature description makes it clear this is not meant to make the car autonomous in any way. If Elon thinks L4/L5 is going to be $100K, then he's going to charge you $100K because what you bought today was not that. Only people that bought before April 2019 were told the system could be L3+.

But we are fully agreed- $12K is an "investment" not a "product"- you may never get value for that. This is a pretty awful investment too, as the max outcome you get is just a cheaper version of what you could have bought in the future, not liquid gains, and that investment only applies to a depreciating asset. Your "investment" could be wiped out by one car accident given it's tied to the car.

 

[Bouba]

Remember, as @Knightshade said- you ARE NOT BUYING L4/L5 for $12K.

All you are "promised" for that money is L2 City Streets Autosteer "coming soon". Tesla can happily charge more for L3+ capability, given "Full Self Driving" is just a name and the feature description makes it clear this is not meant to make the car autonomous in any way. If Elon thinks L4/L5 is going to be $100K, then he's going to charge you $100K because what you bought today was not that. Only people that bought before April 2019 were told the system could be L3+.

Ok...I never thought of that.... that’s the problem with trying to outsmart the smartest man in the world

 

[gearchruncher]

that’s the problem with trying to outsmart the smartest man in the world

Wow that is some serious fanboi-ing. Money =! Brains (not saying he isn't smart, but no data he's literally the smartest person alive)

The real issue here is that as a "customer" you are trying to "outsmart" Tesla. It already tells you that you have an adversarial relationship. That you know Tesla doesn't actually keep to their promises or marketing, and that they will push every claim to the maximum that they believe will not get them into (too) much trouble.

That's one of the ways Elon became the richest person, by having a very tenuous relationship with reality and zero cares about when he is wrong. It worked for him in a capitalist way, but it's not something we should strive to have as personality traits in our societal or thought leaders. Nor would I argue that statistically it's the most reliable way to achieve wealth on his scale either.

 

[Bouba]

Wow that is some serious fanboi-ing. Money =! Brains (not saying he isn't smart, but no data he's literally the smartest person alive)

The real issue here is that as a "customer" you are trying to "outsmart" Tesla. It already tells you that you have an adversarial relationship. That you know Tesla doesn't actually keep to their promises or marketing, and that they will push every claim to the maximum that they believe will not get them into (too) much trouble.

That's one of the ways Elon became the richest person, by having a very tenuous relationship with reality and zero cares about when he is wrong. It worked for him in a capitalist way, but it's not something we should strive to have as personality traits in our societal or thought leaders. Nor would I argue that statistically it's the most reliable way to achieve wealth on his scale either.

Depends on how you judge it...Nobel Laureate ?....Kevin from Eggheats ?...Richest self-made man in the world ?...the ability to create the future out of nothing is a good one

 

[raptor5244]

FSD will be worth $12K once Tesla Auto Insurance is essentially included for free for the lifetime of the car with every purchase because it's proven to make driving so much safer.

Maybe a small fee for Uninsured motorist & hail damage.

Drastically lowered Insurance rates are the required proof of effective FSD.

I only keep my cars 2-3 years. I will be probably be on my 5th car or dead by the time L4/L5 FSD happens. Also, how is it safer if only the Tesla owners have FSD? What about all the other drivers on the road without FSD?

 

[Supcom]

I only keep my cars 2-3 years. I will be probably be on my 5th car or dead by the time L4/L5 FSD happens. Also, how is it safer if only the Tesla owners have FSD? What about all the other drivers on the road without FSD?

If you drive any vehicle defensively, it makes you safer despite the other divers. Same thing for an autonomous vehicle. It should drive defensively plus be able to see in all directions all the time without getting tired or succumbing to road rage temptations.