Bizarre failure this morning, making a left turn off my street that I literally take multiple times a week. Instead of turning left as expected, the car moved forward an extra 15-20 feet before attempting the turn. I glanced at the display panel because I thought it might've decided to go straight, but the path vector was showing a left turn into the curb past the intersection, which it promptly attempted to do before I disengaged. I'm not sure if the planner froze momentarily or the GPS was off.
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Wiki MASTER THREAD: Actual FSD Beta downloads and experiences
- Thread starter jebinc
- Start date
EVNow
Well-Known Member
I think actual turns are done based on the visual - gps being off by a few meters should not matter.
Past couple of releases, on my left turn out of my neighborhood it has been going straight at the intersection before turning. But it turns correctly.
I do notice the availability of FSD (presence of gray steering wheel) fades in and out on a rural road I drive on some days.
If FSD is dependent on gps to engage, one wonders what the effect of loss of gps would have when FSD is engaged.
If FSD is dependent on gps to engage, one wonders what the effect of loss of gps would have when FSD is engaged.
I am trying to understand what Elon means by “jitter”. It seems to be related to a kind of accumulation of lag from various bits of code.
This might manifest in a bit of real world lag in certain situations.… perhaps, my speculation here.
Dave Lee and James Douma had a helpful discussion posted on YT today.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
I think he was referring to not just the lag - because variation in the lag i.e. sometimes the delay is 100 ms and other time 200 ms. So, FSD is continuously responding to events that happened in the past - but sometimes 100 ms ago and at other times 200 ms ago.
He said the delay was about 100 ms (IIRC) and the jitter itself was upto 150 ms.
BTW, anyone find a transcript of youtube conversation ?
I think the availability of FSD is gated based on whether the car is confident about the surroundings it sees and the path it can find within them. You can lose it temporarily mid-turn when the lane lines are pointing everywhere. If I exit my garage and pull to the left side of the street angled into the parked cars while I enter the destination, it won’t show the gray wheel until I pull out sufficiently into the street even if there is enough space for the car to handle that by itself (theoretically).
re: loss of GPS, there was a recent thread either here or on Reddit where the GPS location got misplaced while AP was engaged on the freeway, and it started freaking out by changing the set speed limit as well as throwing warnings because it thought the driver was about to run a stop sign etc. I hope a total failure of the module would result in a “take over now” type error
I can activate FSD Beta deep in my parking deck with a 30 floors above it. No GPS signal required.
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This is likely due to how much the steering wheel is turned. FSD availability goes away when your steering wheel is in a turn. There's a bit of tolerance from neutral position but not much. so if it's a winding local road, you'll see the icon disappear a lot.
The occasional gray steering wheel fading in/out (but not today) has actually happened on two straightaways. 600' straight to an intersection. Another 700' or so straight to a sharp left turn in the road. Rural road, no centerline, 25mph and slowing nicely as needed. Then the road descends the hill becoming more windy and carefully aims for all the potholes. I decide if I want to drive or if she can have her fun.
Probably my best drive was today! Still had sections where I chose not to re-enable FSD after disengagement - like the twisty road at side of mountain with poor visibility and typically poor lane keeping.
Success:
- Prompt left turn at flashing yellow
- Stayed in through lane instead of moving to right hand merge lane feeding from the intersecting street. The circumstances were different compared to last week but it still used to always head for the right hand merge lane across the intersection. Car moved through intersection today (no lead car) vs. car stopped at a light, shown tracking to the merge lane last week in last pic, illustrated here.
The usual failures:
- Deviation from navigation route
- Unusual/unwanted lane changes and failure to anticipate turn early enough.
Probably my best drive was today! Still had sections where I chose not to re-enable FSD after disengagement - like the twisty road at side of mountain with poor visibility and typically poor lane keeping.
Success:
- Prompt left turn at flashing yellow
- Stayed in through lane instead of moving to right hand merge lane feeding from the intersecting street. The circumstances were different compared to last week but it still used to always head for the right hand merge lane across the intersection. Car moved through intersection today (no lead car) vs. car stopped at a light, shown tracking to the merge lane last week in last pic, illustrated here.
The usual failures:
- Deviation from navigation route
- Unusual/unwanted lane changes and failure to anticipate turn early enough.
Attached is a screen shot of an intersection of Dunstable and Groton Roads in Chelmsford, Ma.
Goal is to turn left onto Groton Rd towards the 'square'. Yes it's called Vinal Square! FSD has no idea what to do nor would many new drivers. Town was incoporated in 1655 which gives you an idea of how nuts many of the intersections are.
FSD has no idea what to do when coming into the intersection from Dunstable Road. First, the car should turn perpendicular and creep to Groton Road so it can see the cars on Groton Rd otherwise it's driving blind. When the shared light turns Green the car has to turn left and merge into a line of traffic on Groton Rd. Usually a car on Groton Rd will stop to let you in but if not you have to wait until there is no line of traffic going towards the intersection. I have tried this several times and always have to disengage since FSD won't even turn perpendicular to the intersection so it can even see cars coming from the right. I've never made it past that step. Trying to help with the Go pedal just causes a mess.
South Chelmsford, MA 01824
Goal is to turn left onto Groton Rd towards the 'square'. Yes it's called Vinal Square! FSD has no idea what to do nor would many new drivers. Town was incoporated in 1655 which gives you an idea of how nuts many of the intersections are.
FSD has no idea what to do when coming into the intersection from Dunstable Road. First, the car should turn perpendicular and creep to Groton Road so it can see the cars on Groton Rd otherwise it's driving blind. When the shared light turns Green the car has to turn left and merge into a line of traffic on Groton Rd. Usually a car on Groton Rd will stop to let you in but if not you have to wait until there is no line of traffic going towards the intersection. I have tried this several times and always have to disengage since FSD won't even turn perpendicular to the intersection so it can even see cars coming from the right. I've never made it past that step. Trying to help with the Go pedal just causes a mess.
South Chelmsford, MA 01824
GlmnAlyAirCar
Active Member
I have learned that since the camera set sees the world differently than we do, it's wrong to expect FSD to align the car at the intersection the same way we would. In this particular example, FSD can see back onto Groton Rd using the right repeater camera. In this case, it doesn't want to be perpendicular; it should approach the intersection at an angle.
Of course this behavior would likely confuse other drivers.
It's unfortunate that the camera placement does not allow FSD to position itself like a human driver would at many intersections. But this is a limitation of the camera set and I see no way around it.
I have an intersection that works just like what you describe, except without all the extraneous roads in Vinal. I'm on Hobbs trying to take an unprotected left onto Bridge. Rather than the car using the center marking to orient itself perpendicularly so it can see both sides of the road, it basically maintains the original angle of the road. Which puts it almost in head-on collision mode when someone is trying to turn right onto my road.
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People are going 55-60mph on Bridge st, so the analogy breaks down a bit, but the car doesn't seem to "look" to the right and just goes. It's never come close to taking this intersection correctly.
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The problem is the right repeater camera cannot see back onto Groton Rd unless it turns otherwise its obstructed. When you approach the intersection the painted line is clear you're supposed to turn perpendicular and go forward, FSD just doesn't. The second problem is merging into the line of traffic when the light turns green for both roads and someone expects you to pull out in front of them when they stop to let you in. Definitely an edge case but we have alot of them. Emailed Tesla. The solution may be to have mapping avoid the intersection from this direction.
South Chelmsford, MA 01824
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FSD Beta newb here... I took my first proper test drive with FSD Beta earlier today and had some interesting experiences. I'm wondering if people who have more experience with FSD Beta could tell me if any of this is normal/typical or abnormal/atypical FSD Beta behavior?
Are these types of errors somewhat typical/normal? Or are they totally out of the ordinary?
Thanks.
- An ambulance with its emergency lights flashing was driving towards me down a residential, undivided street. FSD Beta kept on driving unabated and didn't react at all to the approaching ambulance. I waited until the ambulance was just a few hundred feet away before taking manual control and pulling over (way later than any normal driver ever would wait). FSD Beta never showed any indication that it was going to react in any way.
- I tried navigating onto an expressway on-ramp (specifically, I-88 eastbound at Rt 31 in North Aurora, IL), but FSD Beta took the wrong ramp and took me in the opposite direction.
Instead of changing lanes into the right lane to get onto the eastbound ramp, FSD Beta simply drove straight down the left lane onto the westbound ramp. (See marked-up satellite and Streetview photos below.)
The lane markings here aren't great (they're a bit faded), but cars have a reasonable ~400 feet to execute this lane change, and there were no other cars blocking the way. The car's turn signal never turned on and the car never showed any intent on changing lanes despite the navigation directions clearly showing the correct way it was supposed to go. Instead of changing lanes, it aggressively zoomed up to ~50mph in the left lane (way too fast even for the WB ramp) and drove straight past the EB ramp. (I tried this twice and got the same result both times.)
- I engaged FSD Beta while stopped at a red light in a left turn lane with no lead cars, ~5 feet away from the intersection's "stop line" . I saw on the screen that the car was correctly planning on executing a left turn at this intersection based on the nav route. After being stopped here for maybe 20-30 seconds, out of nowhere the car began accelerating out into the intersection despite 2 clearly visible red stop lights on the other side of the intersection. By the time I reacted and slammed on the brakes, the car was well past the stop line, and I had to put the car in reverse to back away from the cross-traffic driving through the intersection.
(Possibly notable: a small bit of the green light for the cross-traffic was visible from the side on the traffic light on the right side of the intersection, but it could never reasonably be confused for a green light in the direction my car was going. From the car's view, it looked almost exactly the same as the Streetview photo shown below.)
- After exiting an expressway, the first intersection after the off-ramp had a right-turn-only lane and my car was supposed to make a right turn. The traffic light at the intersection was red for traffic going straight, but it had a green right-turn arrow clearly showing for cars turning right. Several lead cars turned right without stopping, but FSD Beta started slowing my car towards a full stop before the intersection's stop line despite the green arrow. The turn lane had a pretty gentle curve to it, so there was no need to dramatically slow down to execute the turn. Since there were other cars behind me, I took over and manually accelerated through the intersection before it could come to a complete stop.
- After exiting an expressway at another off-ramp, again the first intersection had a right-turn-only lane at which my car was supposed to make a right turn, but this time the traffic light was red with no green arrow, and there were no lead cars. But instead of stopping at the intersection's stop line, FSD Beta tried to drive straight through the red light and make the right turn without stopping.
Are these types of errors somewhat typical/normal? Or are they totally out of the ordinary?
Thanks.
Others have reported failure to stop at a stop sign. I don't recall failure at a light before. I've never had it fail to stop at either. That said I have had it mis-navigate several times. And it will pull out in traffic after stopping and then creeping up. Goes very slowly jerking the wheel and then as cars are now bearing down (say 40-50 ft away where once the road was clear) decides to start going. Dis-engaged twice on a 40mi trip yesterday on that. Yesterday was particularly bad. I hit the send button about 20 times for phantom breaking on that trip. Most moderate (only sightly dangerous with cars behind me) and several hard (not quite emergency) braking.
#1- FSD does not recognize emergency vehicles yet so you will need to take over. Only exception I'm aware of is on the highway at night with emergency vehicles in front of you. A message should appear that you need to take over the speed control. Note: School buses and school zones are not supported yet.
#2- I would have expected FSD would take the correct ramp.
#3- I would try this again with FSD engaged before the light. I have had this happen at one light but not in any recent builds.
#4- Results vary but it's not uncommon to need to use the Go-pedal to let FSD know to proceed. You'll find the Go=pedal is very helpful as you become familiar to FSD.
#5- Should not happen.
Welcome to FSD! Always expect the unexpected.
Not strictly FSD related, but today I got caught in freezing rain. It was overcast and dry when I drove to my destination. While I was there, it started to rain. Temp was -1C / 30F but temp on the ground was likely colder from overnight. Anyway, instant ice rink on all the roads on my drive back.
I have a RWD Model 3 with Tesla's winter tires. Car did very very well. I kept my speed in the teens. Single digits going downhill. A few fishtails here and there but manageable with countersteer. Some interesting observations:
- FSD beta disabled itself due to all the slippage. My visualizations turned to regular AP/NOA.
- I was very briefly tempted to turn on FSD while I still had it, but I noticed the speed limit (40mph) and my set speed (45mph) was ludicrous for the conditions. There was no way for me to reduce the set speed before activating FSD, and I had no confidence FSD has any intelligence around icy conditions.
- regen disabled itself dynamically. Meaning during frequent/constant slippage, if I suddenly let go of the accelerator, the car would not attempt to regen. Not sure if this has always been the case, but it will be good for the people who like to turn off/down regen during slippery conditions. No need to do that. I never did anyway, preferring to rely on my own pedal modulation. Regen strength increased in spots where it was less slick. Overall very impressed with the slippage logic built into regen.
- great technique for downhill ice: get right-side tires onto the grass/dirt (this assumes local winding 2-lane roads with no curbs). I saw a lot of large vehicles do this with great success. Mailboxes and garbage cans can thwart you though.
- lots of people with no traction, likely due to having all-season tires on instead of winter/snow tires. Lots of people in ditches, and lots of people pulled over, deciding to wait for salt trucks to pass. I saw a jeep stuck on top of a stone. Having winter tires is objectively better than AWD with non-winter tires.
- never underestimate other people being stupid. Sometimes you go slower than you need to from a slippage standpoint because someone else might lose control and force you to have to make quick adjustments.
I have a RWD Model 3 with Tesla's winter tires. Car did very very well. I kept my speed in the teens. Single digits going downhill. A few fishtails here and there but manageable with countersteer. Some interesting observations:
- FSD beta disabled itself due to all the slippage. My visualizations turned to regular AP/NOA.
- I was very briefly tempted to turn on FSD while I still had it, but I noticed the speed limit (40mph) and my set speed (45mph) was ludicrous for the conditions. There was no way for me to reduce the set speed before activating FSD, and I had no confidence FSD has any intelligence around icy conditions.
- regen disabled itself dynamically. Meaning during frequent/constant slippage, if I suddenly let go of the accelerator, the car would not attempt to regen. Not sure if this has always been the case, but it will be good for the people who like to turn off/down regen during slippery conditions. No need to do that. I never did anyway, preferring to rely on my own pedal modulation. Regen strength increased in spots where it was less slick. Overall very impressed with the slippage logic built into regen.
- great technique for downhill ice: get right-side tires onto the grass/dirt (this assumes local winding 2-lane roads with no curbs). I saw a lot of large vehicles do this with great success. Mailboxes and garbage cans can thwart you though.
- lots of people with no traction, likely due to having all-season tires on instead of winter/snow tires. Lots of people in ditches, and lots of people pulled over, deciding to wait for salt trucks to pass. I saw a jeep stuck on top of a stone. Having winter tires is objectively better than AWD with non-winter tires.
- never underestimate other people being stupid. Sometimes you go slower than you need to from a slippage standpoint because someone else might lose control and force you to have to make quick adjustments.
Was always impressed how my RWD BMWs handled in snow and ice with winter tires. Bought my last one in Miami because everything in NY area was AWD crap.
colettimj
Member
I only have a few drives completed with 10.8. The prior issues I've seen in my neighborhood with stops and "T" intersections still remain; FSD sometimes stops too far back, hesitates when proceeding or even stops halfway through the turn. I have, however, seen a measurable improvement on behavior on stretches of straight roadway; FSD has stopped flicking the turn signal on or changing lanes for no apparent reason. I actually noticed a few lane changes that were almost certainly purposefully done to move to a faster lane.
I'm new to FSD Beta, as of Dec 30th, starting with 2021.44.25.6 on my Legacy Dec 2016 MX (after having the needed Camera Upgrade).
The weather has been very snowy, and many roads fully covered, this past week, so I'm not expecting great FSD results. I have had limited experiences using it especially in my neighborhood that has many Roundabouts.
However, I do have several Newby questions, and apologize if they have been addressed previously:
1) How & when do I use the camera icon at top of MCU, to report FSD issues.
2) When I engage FSD, my TACC misreads the Speed Limit shown on my dashboard, when sign ends in zero. For example 30 mph icon shown on dashboard, gets set to 36mph TACC., and 50mph on dash gets set to 56mph TACC. Has anyone else experienced this?
3) The new Tesla Vision Perpendicular AutoPark, does not seem to work. I have tried to use this in an indoor parking lot. My dashboard displays parked cars as well as open spaces, but I do not get the P icon on my MCU, designating a parking spot available.
4) Has anyone emailed any issues to [email protected], and actually got a response
Any and all responses and suggestions are greatly appreciated.
The weather has been very snowy, and many roads fully covered, this past week, so I'm not expecting great FSD results. I have had limited experiences using it especially in my neighborhood that has many Roundabouts.
However, I do have several Newby questions, and apologize if they have been addressed previously:
1) How & when do I use the camera icon at top of MCU, to report FSD issues.
2) When I engage FSD, my TACC misreads the Speed Limit shown on my dashboard, when sign ends in zero. For example 30 mph icon shown on dashboard, gets set to 36mph TACC., and 50mph on dash gets set to 56mph TACC. Has anyone else experienced this?
3) The new Tesla Vision Perpendicular AutoPark, does not seem to work. I have tried to use this in an indoor parking lot. My dashboard displays parked cars as well as open spaces, but I do not get the P icon on my MCU, designating a parking spot available.
4) Has anyone emailed any issues to [email protected], and actually got a response
Any and all responses and suggestions are greatly appreciated.
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