Model S range and interior update imminent?

[David29]

They said they've produced more than 10000 cells, they used a number in the tens of thousands.

At 2000 cells per car, that's not a lot, so no, they don't have HUGE amounts now, and won't for a long while judging by the multi-year timeline they showed.

Speculating is silly, just watch closely.

Did people get the sense that Tesla would definitely use the new batteries in the Plaid Model S? I did not but I may have misinterpreted the comments about still using other suppliers. I thought the new batteries were about 3 years away, much later than the Plaid.

 

[MP3Mike]

I thought the new batteries were about 3 years away, much later than the Plaid.

Elon said that they would be making 100GWh/year of the new batteries by the end of next year, so no they aren't anywhere near 3 years away.

 

[tontod]

I think the 3 years is for volume production to the point where they could introduce a "Model 2".

 

[Chaserr]

500 miles from 105 kwh (assuming 5 % increase in effect already)? I think the range and power is based on an all new battery. More expensive niche market like S and Roadster should help pay for the ramp to $25k Tesla using them in a few years.

 

[wdolson]

I'm sad about the need for the slot, but that's good to know. You are certainly right about storage. I don't know if you remember the yacht floor they used to offer but I have it in my P85D and that's where the masks, etc. go. I wish they still offered it, but I completely agree they need door pockets and the like.

The center console became standard while I was saving up for my S and I've had loaners with the old floor. I don't like it personally but I know some people like the minimalist design. My last car was a 1992 Buick Roadmaster that had door pockets and pockets on the back of the seats. The car didn't have a center console, it was one of the last with seating for 6, but the center seat in the front was not very good. There was storage for cassettes in the armrest. Junk did accumulate a bit here and there, but it wasn't that bad. The only even moderately useful cupholders were in the armrest, but it was otherwise fairly well laid out.

The seats were fantastic too. About the only thing I really miss are those seats.

 

[ks1972]

Elon said that they would be making 100GWh/year of the new batteries by the end of next year, so no they aren't anywhere near 3 years away.

we have no reason to doubt Elon, right?

 

[sillydriver]

Digging around I found some data supporting the theory that the plaid is being delayed at least in part to achieve higher performance, probably pushed by Lucid. The plaid's best Nurburgring time in 2019 was 7:13. Looking at ring times on Wikipedia, the Porsche 918 Spyder recorded 6:57. Also on Wikipedia, the 918 Spyder at Laguna Seca achieved 1:29.89. The plaid just did 1:30.3, but Elon thinks it can match the McLaren Senna's 1:27.62 at Laguna, which is 2 seconds faster than the 918. That should make it significantly faster than the 918's 6:57 at the ring. Scaling the difference between the 918 and Senna at Laguna by the ratio of typical lap times between the ring and Laguna that implies 6:50ish for the Senna at the ring, where that car currently has no official lap time. So that's roughly Elon's new target Nurburgring time for the plaid. Obviously there are other variables like the different characteristics of the two tracks, but Tesla is definitely pushing toward a higher performance goal.

 

[jschwefel]

IIRC Lucid uses LG Chem batteries. How are they able to put up such respectable track times with these, and Tesla has to rely on their next generation cells?

 

[David_Cary]

Digging around I found some data supporting the theory that the plaid is being delayed at least in part to achieve higher performance, probably pushed by Lucid. The plaid's best Nurburgring time in 2019 was 7:13. Looking at ring times on Wikipedia, the Porsche 918 Spyder recorded 6:57. Also on Wikipedia, the 918 Spyder at Laguna Seca achieved 1:29.89. The plaid just did 1:30.3, but Elon thinks it can match the McLaren Senna's 1:27.62 at Laguna, which is 2 seconds faster than the 918. That should make it significantly faster than the 918's 6:57 at the ring. Scaling the difference between the 918 and Senna at Laguna by the ratio of typical lap times between the ring and Laguna that implies 6:50ish for the Senna at the ring, where that car currently has no official lap time. So that's roughly Elon's new target Nurburgring time for the plaid. Obviously there are other variables like the different characteristics of the two tracks, but Tesla is definitely pushing toward a higher performance goal.

I really like performance cars. But this level of "competitiveness" seems misplaced in the grand scheme of the world. I think therapy would be a lot cheaper....

 

[cityberty]

We always say competition is good for the consumer but in this case a certain subset of consumers who want to buy in the next 6-9 months may disagree. But longterm this should definitely be good

 

[BlindPass]

I really like performance cars. But this level of "competitiveness" seems misplaced in the grand scheme of the world. I think therapy would be a lot cheaper....

Ha!

I think the average consumer still benefits to some degree. Some of the R&D required to achieve this performance trickles down. Not a perfect example, but Tesla isn’t what they are today without the Roadster and Model S, which at the time were expensive cars.


But it’s an interesting dynamic in the context of the quest to make $25k cars. Tesla could make a $25k car now imo, it just wouldn’t have the “requisite” range or performance.

What range and performance is actually needed? The cheapest 3 is effectively as good in those as the first Model S.

With robo taxis and changes in charging, range and particularly acceleration are marginalized.

With modular battery leasing and swapping, Tesla could actually sell 25k cars now if they had the manufacturing capacity. With million mile batteries, swapping and leasing of batteries makes even more sense for both Tesla and most owners imo

 

[mkspeedr]

I really like performance cars. But this level of "competitiveness" seems misplaced in the grand scheme of the world. I think therapy would be a lot cheaper....

Therapy is not cheaper - plus it didn't work.

I am hoping for some significant handling improvements.

 

[iqless]

Therapy is not cheaper - plus it didn't work.

I am hoping for some significant handling improvements.

I just KNOW that my depression will go away when I can FINALLY go from 0 to 60mph in less than 2 seconds in a car. It's the car industry's fault that that hasn't happened yet. They owe me thousands of dollars in wasted therapy money. I'll keep the drugs though

 

[SmartElectric]

I thought the new batteries were about 3 years away, much later than the Plaid.

3 years away from massive volume.

Tesla will have a 10 GWh production line running within the next year (the one they are working on in California beside the Fremont plant), they intend to release products like Cybertruck and Semi based on the new cells in 2021, so presumably the volume will be enough for a plaid S with these batteries judging by my understanding of the presentation (which I've watched too many times now).

 

[David29]

3 years away from massive volume.

Tesla will have a 10 GWh production line running within the next year (the one they are working on in California beside the Fremont plant), they intend to release products like Cybertruck and Semi based on the new cells in 2021, so presumably the volume will be enough for a plaid S with these batteries judging by my understanding of the presentation (which I've watched too many times now).

Hmmm. The Cybertruck and the Semi are new vehicles, still in design, and without manufacturing machinery and assembly lines already committed. So I can see the feasibility of incorporating new battery cells in those. But the Model S design is set and the manufacturing lines are in use. The new cells will require new battery packs, potentially different cooling systems, and most likely different chassis architecture. I cannot see the new cells being in the Model S without a major revamp of the platform, and I doubt Tesla will do that for a low volume model like the Plaid will be. I could only picture that if tesla does a major revamp of the Model S (and possibly X?) architecture, inside and out, which sounds like a major investment. They would need to do all their testing all over -- including safety testing for all their sales markets. The Model S and X volumes are so low, it is hard to imagine that investment being prudent and worthwhile. They have not even converted S and X to the cells being used in Model 3, which would be a smaller leap (but still would be disruptive to manufacturing and would possibly require testing, I think).

Tesla has too much development on their plate -- Semi, Roadster, Cybertruck, and now the Plaid.

Frankly -- and as a Model S owner, I hate to say this -- I wonder if Models S and X have served their purpose and will not be further developed. The Plaid model is a sort of extreme stretch of the current platform. Maybe it will be the swan song...The Model S and X do not really fit with the high volume, low quality/low service model that tesla is currently operating. For continuing sales at high volumes, Models S and X require a different sort of buying/service experience, which existed before Model 3 but which is largely gone. I wonder if the pricier models are just not needed for Tesla's purpose to "accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy..."

 

[henderrj]

Hmmm. The Cybertruck and the Semi are new vehicles, still in design, and without manufacturing machinery and assembly lines already committed. So I can see the feasibility of incorporating new battery cells in those. But the Model S design is set and the manufacturing lines are in use. The new cells will require new battery packs, potentially different cooling systems, and most likely different chassis architecture. I cannot see the new cells being in the Model S without a major revamp of the platform, and I doubt Tesla will do that for a low volume model like the Plaid will be. I could only picture that if tesla does a major revamp of the Model S (and possibly X?) architecture, inside and out, which sounds like a major investment. They would need to do all their testing all over -- including safety testing for all their sales markets. The Model S and X volumes are so low, it is hard to imagine that investment being prudent and worthwhile. They have not even converted S and X to the cells being used in Model 3, which would be a smaller leap (but still would be disruptive to manufacturing and would possibly require testing, I think).

Tesla has too much development on their plate -- Semi, Roadster, Cybertruck, and now the Plaid.

Frankly -- and as a Model S owner, I hate to say this -- I wonder if Models S and X have served their purpose and will not be further developed. The Plaid model is a sort of extreme stretch of the current platform. Maybe it will be the swan song...The Model S and X do not really fit with the high volume, low quality/low service model that tesla is currently operating. For continuing sales at high volumes, Models S and X require a different sort of buying/service experience, which existed before Model 3 but which is largely gone. I wonder if the pricier models are just not needed for Tesla's purpose to "accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy..."

This has, as I'm sure you are aware, been discussed before on this site. I do believe they will continue the S and the x. I also believe they will upgrade it dramatically. Mercedes makes the S class and BMW makes the 7 series and their volumes are way lower than the s or the X. There is a reason to have Halo cars. it does help the overall sales. And, it gives people a place to go. last thought, Tesla already has set up a model S and X only shop in california. Perhaps that is the plan for the future. I also think that would be a good idea.

 

[David29]

last thought, Tesla already has set up a model S and X only shop in california. Perhaps that is the plan for the future. I also think that would be a good idea.

What sort of shop? Do you mean an exclusive S/X factory line? Or do you mean an exclusive service facility? I had not heard of it, either way, so please elaborate.

 

[sillydriver]

Hmmm. The Cybertruck and the Semi are new vehicles, still in design, and without manufacturing machinery and assembly lines already committed. So I can see the feasibility of incorporating new battery cells in those. But the Model S design is set and the manufacturing lines are in use. The new cells will require new battery packs, potentially different cooling systems, and most likely different chassis architecture. I cannot see the new cells being in the Model S without a major revamp of the platform, and I doubt Tesla will do that for a low volume model like the Plaid will be. I could only picture that if tesla does a major revamp of the Model S (and possibly X?) architecture, inside and out, which sounds like a major investment. They would need to do all their testing all over -- including safety testing for all their sales markets. The Model S and X volumes are so low, it is hard to imagine that investment being prudent and worthwhile. They have not even converted S and X to the cells being used in Model 3, which would be a smaller leap (but still would be disruptive to manufacturing and would possibly require testing, I think).

Tesla has too much development on their plate -- Semi, Roadster, Cybertruck, and now the Plaid.

Frankly -- and as a Model S owner, I hate to say this -- I wonder if Models S and X have served their purpose and will not be further developed. The Plaid model is a sort of extreme stretch of the current platform. Maybe it will be the swan song...The Model S and X do not really fit with the high volume, low quality/low service model that tesla is currently operating. For continuing sales at high volumes, Models S and X require a different sort of buying/service experience, which existed before Model 3 but which is largely gone. I wonder if the pricier models are just not needed for Tesla's purpose to "accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy..."

Your comment is well-enough reasoned that it leaves me worried.

 

[FreqFlyer]

Hmmm. The Cybertruck and the Semi are new vehicles, still in design, and without manufacturing machinery and assembly lines already committed. So I can see the feasibility of incorporating new battery cells in those. But the Model S design is set and the manufacturing lines are in use. The new cells will require new battery packs, potentially different cooling systems, and most likely different chassis architecture. I cannot see the new cells being in the Model S without a major revamp of the platform, and I doubt Tesla will do that for a low volume model like the Plaid will be. I could only picture that if tesla does a major revamp of the Model S (and possibly X?) architecture, inside and out, which sounds like a major investment. They would need to do all their testing all over -- including safety testing for all their sales markets. The Model S and X volumes are so low, it is hard to imagine that investment being prudent and worthwhile. They have not even converted S and X to the cells being used in Model 3, which would be a smaller leap (but still would be disruptive to manufacturing and would possibly require testing, I think).

Tesla has too much development on their plate -- Semi, Roadster, Cybertruck, and now the Plaid.

Frankly -- and as a Model S owner, I hate to say this -- I wonder if Models S and X have served their purpose and will not be further developed. The Plaid model is a sort of extreme stretch of the current platform. Maybe it will be the swan song...The Model S and X do not really fit with the high volume, low quality/low service model that tesla is currently operating. For continuing sales at high volumes, Models S and X require a different sort of buying/service experience, which existed before Model 3 but which is largely gone. I wonder if the pricier models are just not needed for Tesla's purpose to "accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy..."

Good points and probably true, but-
1. Elon was usually vague after the announcement about Plaid. He did the same when the Y debuted so as not to deep six 3 sales. He is hiding something.

2. Why spend so much time about new production techniques and then shoe horn(if possible engineering wise) Tesla Latest batteries into 10 year old chassis that a generation behind the 3 and further behind the Y.

3. The next gen S will most likely have a ot in common with the next gen Roadster. So while developing one, Tesla is developing the other. Car makers do this all the time and saves on CAPEX.

4. The Model S segment is going to be getting crowded with EV new comers in its marketing segment. While some loyal S buyers do not want the car to change, throwing state of the art batteries, and a new interior may not be enough gain attention in a soon to be crowded segment. Of this is a circular argument, and one could state its not worth the investment of a new product for this segment. But we know Elon and he loves competition.

5. Will allow Tesla to design the X to be a better competitor in the high end CUV/SUV segment. Bye bye Falcon wing doors.

 

[RED MDL3]

The new battery design will increase supply at lower production costs but I’m not sure the consumer will receive significant advantages beyond price. Tesla could use fewer KW’s to achieve the same range saving some weight. I don’t think current vehicles will be obsolete any time soon...