Bad example: FIOS/Uverse users pay for a certain rate. The rate *is* the product in some sense, and if you want faster you pay more. It's very explicit. In fact, when I upgraded to a new rate this year, I got the new equipment for "free". Tesla (if what is alleged is happening is happening) has stated nothing about what some cars might or might not be capable of. If it's a feature of the car, put it in the specs! If it changes, change the spec. That's all I'm asking. Otherwise, how can buyers, or used buyers make informed decisions?
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Bad example: FIOS/Uverse users pay for a certain rate. The rate *is* the product in some sense, and if you want faster you pay more. It's very explicit. In fact, when I upgraded to a new rate this year, I got the new equipment for "free". Tesla (if what is alleged is happening is happening) has stated nothing about what some cars might or might not be capable of. If it's a feature of the car, put it in the specs! If it changes, change the spec. That's all I'm asking. Otherwise, how can buyers, or used buyers make informed decisions?
I respect your opinion but disagree. Additionally I purchased a service contract mostly to have access to "hardware upgrades" that affect integral components of the car. I feel that supercharging is no exception and fully expect Tesla to upgrade the hardware on my car. P+, parking senors, etc. are a totally different ball game as they are extra cost options. Supercharging is not.
juliusa
Active Member
Not sure why people think that the early cars don't have a right to be upset about this. Tesla could have made it clear when they first announced 120 kW charging that earlier cars wouldn't have access instead of making them figure it out the hard way. I bet all the people with newer cars who don't think it's a big deal will be complaining when they find out that their car is not compatible with 135 kW when that comes out.
That being said, I fully expect Tesla to provide a free retrofit for the older cars. It would not make business sense or be in line with Tesla customer service standards to penalize the earliest Model S adopters.
That being said, I fully expect Tesla to provide a free retrofit for the older cars. It would not make business sense or be in line with Tesla customer service standards to penalize the earliest Model S adopters.
I normally wouldn't toss my hat into the ring on these issues, but I'm feeling compelled to as a result of my confusion and frustration.
1. Never was there indication that older cars wouldn't be compatible or even that certain cars would never be compatible (60 or 85)...
2. If that's true, and I update and add a SC to a non SC car today, does that mean that car gets better value out of the SC upgrade???
3. During our Disneyland trip, and to everyone that asks about charging, we exclaim to them how the charging gets faster and faster as Tesla improved the tech. Now I have to say... "nope" this is one of those old cars that doesn't charge as fast... when DC chargers popup for Leafs... will we be relegated to "those old slow tesla's"
4. Why did we just now figure this out?!?
5. Media will have a hay day with this. I'm sure they didn't realize that it was a half empty promise and how older cars actually wont receive the supposed "roll-out"
6. Next we will hear that battery swap is only for sig cars?!? built after the announcement?!?
7. Ok, what about buying/selling a used tesla? They don't go by model year... so now you'll have to look up individual vin's to find out what it actually has included? After all. One 2013 has SC, another has SC 120 (though both have SC - no distinction between them on purchase docs), another has fog lights, another doesn't (both 2013's), one has ambient lights the other doesn't), OH, one lowers at highway speeds, the other doesn't, on can battery swap, the other can't (speculative sarcasm)... but they are all 2013's?) It just creates TONS of confusion.
8. Last, why should I ever get excited about new announcements when they have nothing to do with my car... or should believe "where's the catch", "how will this not benefit me?"
Last, this isn't like parking sensors that are clear add-on's later. Imagine if the press releases said something like this "We've discovered a new way to increase mileage on the cars by 50% by modifying the front grill. This update will be rolled out to all cars in a few months). OR, "This update will be available to all customers next month", OR "Soon all customers will enjoy greater range"
I'm 100% positive everyone would assume they were able to get the feature added...
[end of rant]
1. Never was there indication that older cars wouldn't be compatible or even that certain cars would never be compatible (60 or 85)...
2. If that's true, and I update and add a SC to a non SC car today, does that mean that car gets better value out of the SC upgrade???
3. During our Disneyland trip, and to everyone that asks about charging, we exclaim to them how the charging gets faster and faster as Tesla improved the tech. Now I have to say... "nope" this is one of those old cars that doesn't charge as fast... when DC chargers popup for Leafs... will we be relegated to "those old slow tesla's"
4. Why did we just now figure this out?!?
5. Media will have a hay day with this. I'm sure they didn't realize that it was a half empty promise and how older cars actually wont receive the supposed "roll-out"
6. Next we will hear that battery swap is only for sig cars?!? built after the announcement?!?
7. Ok, what about buying/selling a used tesla? They don't go by model year... so now you'll have to look up individual vin's to find out what it actually has included? After all. One 2013 has SC, another has SC 120 (though both have SC - no distinction between them on purchase docs), another has fog lights, another doesn't (both 2013's), one has ambient lights the other doesn't), OH, one lowers at highway speeds, the other doesn't, on can battery swap, the other can't (speculative sarcasm)... but they are all 2013's?) It just creates TONS of confusion.
8. Last, why should I ever get excited about new announcements when they have nothing to do with my car... or should believe "where's the catch", "how will this not benefit me?"
Last, this isn't like parking sensors that are clear add-on's later. Imagine if the press releases said something like this "We've discovered a new way to increase mileage on the cars by 50% by modifying the front grill. This update will be rolled out to all cars in a few months). OR, "This update will be available to all customers next month", OR "Soon all customers will enjoy greater range"
I'm 100% positive everyone would assume they were able to get the feature added...
[end of rant]
As a fellow 60 owner, I echo most if not all of these points. I wasn't expecting to have time at the Supercharger cut in half, but I was expecting some improvement. And if this really was a hardware issue (for 85s anyway), it doesn't reflect well on Tesla that we had to discover it on TMC well after the fact.
When I ordered my car 4 1/2 years ago (VIN 1527), no one advertised superchargers. I was buying a car for local trips only, with no expectation that I could easily take road trips. When I finalized my order, there may have been some discussion of superchargers, but I don't remember anything that rose to the level of a promise. Superchargers were formally announced in September, 2012. Shortly thereafter, if I recall correctly, TM advertised that all 60s and 85s would have supercharger hardware (there was also the flap about whether 60s would need to pay extra to get supercharging enabled, and those 60s who ordered before they changed the advertising were able to get it for free). The spec on the 85s and on the 60s that got the option was that supercharging would be enabled. Nowhere did the spec promise supercharging would be enabled at a particular rate. On my car, I received exactly what was promised, indeed more than was promised when I first ordered.
I am disappointed that my car will not be able to take advantage of the 120 kW supercharger upgrade. But I don't think it's unfair. At most, I think TM can be faulted for the way they announced the supercharger upgrade. They should have said these units are able to charge at "up to" 120 kW, with an asterisk referencing a note that said "Some early vehicles will not be able to charge at this rate." Would I like a free hardware upgrade to permit me to charge at 120 kW? You bet! Would I pay for such an upgrade? Probably, depending on the cost. But if TM tells me it's not feasible to upgrade, I can live with that, because I'm already getting more car than I bargained for. The supercharging I get is a bonus I didn't expect and didn't pay for. Besides, I got fog lights and Alcantara, and you didn't.:wink:
I am disappointed that my car will not be able to take advantage of the 120 kW supercharger upgrade. But I don't think it's unfair. At most, I think TM can be faulted for the way they announced the supercharger upgrade. They should have said these units are able to charge at "up to" 120 kW, with an asterisk referencing a note that said "Some early vehicles will not be able to charge at this rate." Would I like a free hardware upgrade to permit me to charge at 120 kW? You bet! Would I pay for such an upgrade? Probably, depending on the cost. But if TM tells me it's not feasible to upgrade, I can live with that, because I'm already getting more car than I bargained for. The supercharging I get is a bonus I didn't expect and didn't pay for. Besides, I got fog lights and Alcantara, and you didn't.:wink:
Zapped
Model S - PURE EV
Hope you're right but unfortunately I don't think I'll be around in 25 years. :crying:
I'll rephrase what I said. I am content either way with 90 or 120 charging in my Sig. For those Sigs that think they will get the upgrade look at the Roadster program. They can't even stop at a charger to charge at L2 rates. It probably won't happen.
I am confident in restating that buying future Signature vehicles at a premium is not wise.
For those that don't know, I have both a Roadster and a Sig Model S. I drink the cool aide but don't like every flavor of it.
I am confident in restating that buying future Signature vehicles at a premium is not wise.
For those that don't know, I have both a Roadster and a Sig Model S. I drink the cool aide but don't like every flavor of it.
Thanks for your response @DouglasR - take my response in good nature.
First, you are correct that when you bought your car there was no super charging.... so you benefited from a number of surprise addons. Great. Me however, SC was announced, so I ordered it. I paid the money after being told that it was not possible to add it on later. So, I got what I ordered. The confusion is around their communication about some cars NOT being able to use the faster SC. Certainly they purposefully neglected this in all press releases knowing that we would make the assumption. Therefore they purposely mis-led or allowed the consumer to be misled. Eitherway... I'm not asking for a free upgrade. Hell I'd just like a) communication about it b) give me the opportunity to upgrade my SC to 120. c) Change the website to state the limitations. Because as I see it, anyone that orders a 60 TODAY has even more of a complaint because NO WHERE does it say that that 60 wont support the 120kw... in fact, all information would allude to the opposite - that it is available just for turning on SC. But, what I've been told is NO 60 no matter when produced will be able to charge at 120kw.
(from order page... it says this, even if I select 60)
"Supercharger Enabled
Tesla Superchargers are external chargers designed to replenish over half of a charge in 20 minutes. Tesla is building a network of 120 kW Superchargers throughout North America, with coast to coast travel by Supercharger possible in early 2014."
Hopefully you (anyone reading) can start to see where all the confusion is.
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Tesla had always planned on deploying 120 kw superchargers.
In September 2012 at the initial supercharging unveiling Elon mentions 120 kw supercharging. It is simply unacceptable that my car, delivered a month after this announcement, does not have this capability built in. It shows that they always had envisioned 120 kw as being technologically possible and yet they chose to limit the technology being put into cars coming fresh off the line. Sorry, but that doesn't add up.
Source: near the 2:45 minute mark.
Tesla Motors Supercharger Event - YouTube
In September 2012 at the initial supercharging unveiling Elon mentions 120 kw supercharging. It is simply unacceptable that my car, delivered a month after this announcement, does not have this capability built in. It shows that they always had envisioned 120 kw as being technologically possible and yet they chose to limit the technology being put into cars coming fresh off the line. Sorry, but that doesn't add up.
Source: near the 2:45 minute mark.
Tesla Motors Supercharger Event - YouTube
@FredTMC, @Bound466, @Discoducky, @Zythyrn and all other 60 kWh owners.
Are we sure 60 kWh won't support 120 KW charging or still waiting confirmation from the company? Would be great if @discoducky can update us after the roadtrip. @Zythryn, would it be possible to see the how your 60 kWh does, compared to 85kWh at 120 KW charging station?
We can probably try a comparison of a signature and newer 85 KWh at a known 120 KW supercharger station. For this comparison to give us some useful data, cars probably needs to be near the end of range and then we can see how much more time is needed to achieve 80% charge or 200 miles.
I am curious what will happen if a 60 kWh swaps to 85 kWh, if this a battery issue or wiring issue? I won't lie, I am a bit disappointed to hear this but I don't think so it will change my commute that much. I may need to spend extra 40 minutes in a commute if I use let's say 3 superchargers during the trip. We all knew technology was going to be better few years down the line. We still haven't heard major battery news, batteries that can last 500 miles, costs half as much or charges in 1/2 duration. All this was kind of expected, let's not be too upset about it.
Are we sure 60 kWh won't support 120 KW charging or still waiting confirmation from the company? Would be great if @discoducky can update us after the roadtrip. @Zythryn, would it be possible to see the how your 60 kWh does, compared to 85kWh at 120 KW charging station?
We can probably try a comparison of a signature and newer 85 KWh at a known 120 KW supercharger station. For this comparison to give us some useful data, cars probably needs to be near the end of range and then we can see how much more time is needed to achieve 80% charge or 200 miles.
I am curious what will happen if a 60 kWh swaps to 85 kWh, if this a battery issue or wiring issue? I won't lie, I am a bit disappointed to hear this but I don't think so it will change my commute that much. I may need to spend extra 40 minutes in a commute if I use let's say 3 superchargers during the trip. We all knew technology was going to be better few years down the line. We still haven't heard major battery news, batteries that can last 500 miles, costs half as much or charges in 1/2 duration. All this was kind of expected, let's not be too upset about it.
I don't think anyone will dispute that fact. However, we are not talking about a few years. What we are talking about here is Tesla making a decision to limit the technology placed in cars coming off the line (see my post above) and then arbitrarily saying, ok at VIN 3000 we are going to start placing newer SC hardware. It had always been in Tesla's plan to improve supercharging to 120. No reason for them not to include that tech in Sigs.
Perhaps, but then why would Elon have stated in September 2012 that they would eventually support 120? If the tech didn't exist then I don't think he would have made that statement.
At any rate, Tesla ought to include this as a free/warranty hardware upgrade. If they absolutely won't do that, then I will argue that it absolutely must be included under hardware upgrades in my service contract.
And Tesla did end up supporting 120 so he was right. The support just may not have existed when he said that.
I will respectfully disagree with your second statement, but you are free to feel that way.
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