Phantom braking (TACC/AP) [Not AEB]

[thewinelake]

The wipers are dangerous on the M3 because there's no stalk control like there is on the S. Hasn't there already been a case in Germany that went against the driver? Use of the camera is either a cost-saving move or a vanity issue. Not sure which.

TACC is getting better and worse and better again. The funny thing is that other manufacturers seem to be doing exactly the same. I'm hearing of phantom braking in all sorts of other cars - from VW to Kia. A switch between "Classic" and "Smart" TACC/AEB would seem logical. All the fanbois can enable "smart" (thereby assisting with its gradual improvement) and all us old fogies can go for "classic". However, providing that option would be a massive blow to Musk's ego, so it's not going to happen.

 

[Dilly]

It’s odd. There are a lot of you on the forum who complain that their wipers overdo their job, or perhaps underdo.
For whatever reason, I haven’t found this to be case with mine.
Just today I went out and it was just spitting. The wipers cut in and out, neither too fast or too slow and not too often.
They didn’t even need the customary ‘jog’ to get them started which most of our previous cars have.
I’ve had them work in both light and heavy rain and they’ve done so as expected.
I don’t know why mine should be any better or worse than anyone else’s.

 

[Rustybkts]

Same here but sometimes they need a nudge.
The dipping headlamps would be reasonable if only they didn't take three seconds to go back to main again.
Was pleased to find that voice control worked for cabin temperature as that can be fiddly with the up/down buttons.

I did try for fun using it for the indicators but all it did was move the face ventilation to the left!

 

[eight]

Having just done a lengthy Manchester-Algarve-Manchester trip I think I've sussed AP to some extent.
Open and virtually empty dual carriageways and motorways similar to what I'd imagine US roads to be like - self drive is pretty much seamless as long as you indicate to overtake well in advance of how the europeans operate. It will never be able to drive like a frenchman.
It'll do mile after mile steady and confident in it's lane, even where there are badly worn lane markings it seems to cope very well. Wobbles where two lanes become one but that can be anticipated.

Try the same on a British motorway, narrow lanes, full of traffic and it's nothing short of lethal.
Artic to the side of you moves across a few inches onto the white line? Brake. Tarmac changes colour under a bridge? Brake. Traffic suddenly pulls into the lane-but-one next to you from the sliproad? Brake. Even worse if a car slides into the lane next to you - it freaks out. I do wonder whether it needs more side cameras, maybe a 45 degree angled forward/sideways cam in the wing mirrors.
Interesting in France too - they have a habit of using many posts at the sides of minor roads in built-up areas. Tesla thinks they're cones and no likey.

Overall, clever. I think. But I can see I've got a fair chance of getting rear ended in the UK.

 

[adsheff]

Having just done a lengthy Manchester-Algarve-Manchester trip I think I've sussed AP to some extent.
Open and virtually empty dual carriageways and motorways similar to what I'd imagine US roads to be like - self drive is pretty much seamless as long as you indicate to overtake well in advance of how the europeans operate. It will never be able to drive like a frenchman.
It'll do mile after mile steady and confident in it's lane, even where there are badly worn lane markings it seems to cope very well. Wobbles where two lanes become one but that can be anticipated.

Try the same on a British motorway, narrow lanes, full of traffic and it's nothing short of lethal.
Artic to the side of you moves across a few inches onto the white line? Brake. Tarmac changes colour under a bridge? Brake. Traffic suddenly pulls into the lane-but-one next to you from the sliproad? Brake. Even worse if a car slides into the lane next to you - it freaks out. I do wonder whether it needs more side cameras, maybe a 45 degree angled forward/sideways cam in the wing mirrors.
Interesting in France too - they have a habit of using many posts at the sides of minor roads in built-up areas. Tesla thinks they're cones and no likey.

Overall, clever. I think. But I can see I've got a fair chance of getting rear ended in the UK.

Getting rear ended is nearly always the fault of the person behind!

 

[Artiste]

It’s odd. There are a lot of you on the forum who complain that their wipers overdo their job, or perhaps underdo.
For whatever reason, I haven’t found this to be case with mine.
Just today I went out and it was just spitting. The wipers cut in and out, neither too fast or too slow and not too often.
They didn’t even need the customary ‘jog’ to get them started which most of our previous cars have.
I’ve had them work in both light and heavy rain and they’ve done so as expected.
I don’t know why mine should be any better or worse than anyone else’s.

The wipers have undoubtedly improved during daylight use, though they’re still far from perfect. At night they are still absolutely dire. How long is it going to take Tesla to sort it out? The irony of having a technologically advanced car that can’t even get the basics right.

 

[Wol747]

>>I did try for fun using it for the indicators but all it did was move the face ventilation to the left!<<

I've just about given up on voice control.
Last time I tried saying "fold mirrors" it actually repeated in the text "Folding mirrors" and then said "navigating to Palo Alto". OK, California's closer to Australia than New York, but it still a long way without any superchargers....

 

[adsheff]

>>I did try for fun using it for the indicators but all it did was move the face ventilation to the left!<<

I've just about given up on voice control.
Last time I tried saying "fold mirrors" it actually repeated in the text "Folding mirrors" and then said "navigating to Palo Alto". OK, California's closer to Australia than New York, but it still a long way without any superchargers....

Yeah, its useless. Changing the temperature is about the only thing it can do consistently. It can't do any of the place names when I ask it to navigate somewhere, yet Google on my phone gets everything I say perfectly. I wish they would just use Google's voice recognition!

 

[Wol747]

Yeah, its useless. Changing the temperature is about the only thing it can do consistently. It can't do any of the place names when I ask it to navigate somewhere, yet Google on my phone gets everything I say perfectly. I wish they would just use Google's voice recognition!

And I wish they would use some other mapping than Google's! Where I live the maps are some 3+ years out of date, my area is unbuilt and the roads are not where they are in reality! If maps are an essential part of FSD - and I'm not sure about that - relying on "goodwill" mapping is lunacy.

 

[Wol747]

>>Well, just had a phantom braking incident. No TACC, just cruising to a stop behind a car at a T junction on country B road. Car got it in to its head that I should be slowing faster (this was not the case in reality, I was already slowing and had plenty of room), slammed on the brakes equivalent to an emergency stop. How the poor car behind me didn't go in to the back of me I don't know - it was very close. This is the second time this has happened to me.<<

Just had the worst ever: in TACC overtook a truck then with someone close behind in the fast lane wanting to go past me I indicated and pulled into the slow lane some 20 yards behind the next car: the car braked so violently the Mrs started crying. Fortunately I hit the accelerator before getting rear-ended.
I don't know what's going on, but the thing seems to get worse by the day.
Tesla seem to have inhibited the ability to post a bug report: neither the long press nor the voice command work any more.

 

[Sparkeur]

I don't know what's going on, but the thing seems to get worse by the day.

I drive on the autoroute twice a day during the college week. Over the past few weeks, I've been enjoying FSD with Nav and feeling very confident with it...until yesterday afternoon returning home with my daughter. I had completed auto lane change to the fast lane to overtake a car and truck and was travelling at the legal limit of 80mph. The car and truck were probably travelling at 55-60mph so I had moved out well in advance. As I drew level with the truck (which was in front of the car), the most violent auto-braking event I have ever experienced occurred. We slowed so much and so quickly, by the time all was back to normal, the truck and car were two or three lengths further down the autoroute. Neither my daughter or I would consider ourselves as 'fragile' but we were shaken by the experience. I saved the dashcam and reviewed it later. Both truck and car stayed in their lane as we passed - not even the slightest indication of lateral movement. I love my car but this continuing issue is unacceptable and dangerous. I don't need another update with a game or the ability to play continuous music, it's time this problem was fixed.

 

[gangzoom]

it's time this problem was fixed.

Phantom braking has got progressive MORE common as Tesla adds more stuff to the AP code. Its both a good sign of development and bad, the car is more aware of stuff - which is good, but often has no idea what to do - bad. The only 'hope' is the current FSD public release is only responding to situations right now and has no 'understanding of context'.

It will be very interesting to see how FSD beta changes any of this, which the ability to 'remeber' in time whats going on rather than been surprised by things at mintue. Ofcourse the current FSD beta released has emergency braking turned off, so we don't know if the car still wants to slam on the brakes at every opportunity.

We also don't know if Tesla will push this code set out to all cars with HW3, or just cars with FSD.

 

[rincewind]

In the case of mine, it was not connected to tacc or any fsd stuff, just the plain old algorithm for stopping at a junction. Not acceptable.

 

[boater291]

Done a few longer trips recently and haven't had any phantom breaking - seems to be a lot better with the recent software updates. Anyone else noticed this?

 

[Wol747]

I love my car but this continuing issue is unacceptable and dangerous. I don't need another update with a game or the ability to play continuous music, it's time this problem was fixed.

Correct.
It's probably true that the two programming teams are not "either or", but the continual emphasis on trivial matters in what is, after all, a mode of transport, is worrying to me. It's the wrong message.

 

[MrBadger]

seems to be a lot better with the recent software updates

What recent updates?

I've not driven on 2020.44.x but .40 was awful for me.

 

[Js1977]

Getting rear ended is nearly always the fault of the person behind!

Mostly I would say. Even with malice involved, the old school two second rule is/should be able to cope. Some people just dont read the disclaimer in regards to these BETA systems....Dummies

 

[boater291]

What recent updates?

I've not driven on 2020.44.x but .40 was awful for me.

I can't remember exactly but I think it improved a lot with one of the minor updates to .40. Probably around 3-4 weeks ago iirc. Before, if I drove 100 motorway miles, I'd typically get around 3-5 phantom breaks. I haven't had any phantom breaking recently

 

[Lanerboy]

Not got my car yet so please excuse me if this sounds dumb.
When you talk about auto pilot is this what you mean by cruise control or is that different.

 

[MrBadger]

Autopilot is the collective term given to TACC and Autosteer.

TACC is traffic aware cruise control - basically adaptive cruise control but done with a combination of sensors, artificial intelligence and navigation knowledge to make the car aware of its surroundings such as other vehicles and some road layouts. It is still work in progress and behaviour of car changes from software release to release, possibly several times per month. TACC can sometimes mis read the situation and for no apparent reason, slow the car down, sometimes very abruptly - this is what people refer to as phantom braking.

Autosteer is similar to lane keep assist which which will keep the car in a lane with minimal driver input. Like TACC, it is still very much a work in progress. The driver must keep their hands on the steering as the car will regularly check for this. You cannot use autosteer without TACC.

Both are driver aids. They are not autonomous driving. The driver is very much in control as and when needed - such as to override phantom brake events or if the car is about to steer into something or not steer enough for a corner.

Full self drive FSD is an optional extra and is a topic in its own right. Again, very much work in progress and not self driving even if the name suggests otherwise.