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Setec CCS to Tesla Adapter

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If one were paranoid, with this update they can obviously detect the adapter and report these "incompatible charging adapter" errors, so they know from this point on who has (tried to) make use of these. If something were to happen to the charging electronics now, they have a possible cause to deny warranty even though the CHAdeMO mode shouldn't cause any issues (but if you use both modes and the experimental SuperCharger mode fries something you might be out of luck).
 
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But given the current understanding, the experimental firmware spoofs a "Supercharger" with the charging screen showing "Supercharging" while the current normal firmware emulates a CHAdeMO, with the charging screen showing the same display a CHAdeMO would (with no "Supercharging" text).

These should be easily distinguishable from their logging yet the "CHAdeMO" emulation is blocked (not sure if anyone has tried the Supercharger emulation lately with this blocking version of Tesla firmware).

Although if Tesla didn't know of the two firmware types and did get an adapter to block and they didn't look at their logging during use of the test adapter, likely they wouldn't know about or don't have the Supercharger experimental firmware to explicitly block only that.
That presumes the service center actually bothered to examine things in that kind of detail. Judging from various accounts of how SCs (Service Centers) operate, I wouldn't necessarily bet on that to be the case (unless someone made the claim and explicitly told them it was from charging using a Setec adapter and then the SC might even get HQ involved; no one in the right mind would do that unless they wanted to get warranty denied on purpose).

It may be a mix of warranty concerns (Tesla must be well aware of the existence of Setec by now) and preparing for CCS1 adapter launch. Best scenario is this is just collateral damage from how they were planning to make that CCS1 adapter work and Setec will probably be able to find a workaround, worst scenario is this is deliberately to block the Setec adapter, in which case there may be a cat and mouse game.
 
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I ran some errands this evening and tried charging at a ChargePoint station on the way home. I tried both the V157 firmware (which Setec sent me when resolving another problem, described earlier in this thread) and the V158 firmware, a link to which somebody posted a while ago. Both failed in the same way described by others in this thread. I also tried my CHAdeMO adapter, and it worked fine on the same ChargePoint charger. I brought my laptop with me and so recorded logs from my Setec adapter, which I've now sent to Setec. In the past, they've been pretty responsive, so I'm hopeful that they'll be able to work around this issue quickly; however, I do have some concerns....

First, if this was a deliberate attempt by Tesla to render a third-party adapter useless, then Tesla has just begun a game of whack-a-mole. Setec is likely to find a solution to the problem and release an update, whereupon Tesla may find another way to detect and disable the Setec adapter, and round and round. This may have the effect of deterring sales of the Setec adapter (which may be the point), but it means that those of us who've sunk money into these adapters will be inconvenienced at best. If this is the pattern that emerges, Tesla will be shooting themselves in the foot, from a customer-service point of view; they'll come across as petty and vindictive. (Of course, there may be things going on behind the scenes, like legitimate concerns at Tesla about the safety of the Setec adapters; but without communicating such issues to Tesla's own customers, it's very bad PR.)

Furthermore, aside from the experimental Supercharger-spoofing firmware, Setec's current firmware has never damaged a car, AFAIK. By forcing Setec to make changes to the Tesla-side code in the adapters, Tesla will be making it more likely for Setec to introduce a bug that might damage the Tesla. This concerns me a lot. I'd like to load up a newer Setec firmware so that I can use the adapter, but frequent firmware changes make me nervous about the potential for such problems.

Finally, knowledge that this type of breakage has happened once, and may happen again, may deter Tesla-side firmware updates. Certainly I know that if, in the future, my Setec adapter works again, and I'm about to go on a road trip, I won't be accepting any Tesla firmware updates just before leaving (or while on the trip). The possibility of breaking my adapter would certainly not deter me from accepting the upcoming city-streets FSD update, but I might be a little less likely to click on "update" for lesser updates. This could also come around to bite Tesla, since they may want most cars to update to the latest firmware within a reasonable timeframe.

The best-case scenario is that this breakage was accidental, and that it will spur Tesla and Setec to cooperate in the future. This might even help unlock the full 80kW speed from the device. I'm skeptical that it was accidental, and I'm even more skeptical that it will spur better cooperation, but it could happen.
 
The best-case scenario is that this breakage was accidental, and that it will spur Tesla and Setec to cooperate in the future. This might even help unlock the full 80kW speed from the device. I'm skeptical that it was accidental, and I'm even more skeptical that it will spur better cooperation, but it could happen.
Well Tesla has blocked third-party mods in the past, with the module that unlocks the acceleration boost feature on the LR 3/Y, the company was forced to develop an additional module that they sent customers for free to get it working again. I haven't heard of Tesla blocking the new one yet, but I'm sure they could if they wanted to.

As far as them working with SETEC, I give that a 0.001% chance. We already know that Tesla is making their own adapter, so why would they help a competitor? (Which would put some amount of liability on them.)

I find it interesting on the varying support for the adapter:
  • EVgo: Modifies their policy to ban the use of the adapter.
  • Electrify America/Canada: Says that because of shrinking cars supporting CHAdeMO, the SETEC adapter, they are going to stop installing CHAdeMO chargers. Will they reverse that decision now that Tesla has rendered the adapter inoperable?
 
Well Tesla has blocked third-party mods in the past, with the module that unlocks the acceleration boost feature on the LR 3/Y, the company was forced to develop an additional module that they sent customers for free to get it working again. I haven't heard of Tesla blocking the new one yet, but I'm sure they could if they wanted to.

As far as them working with SETEC, I give that a 0.001% chance. We already know that Tesla is making their own adapter, so why would they help a competitor? (Which would put some amount of liability on them.)
Yeah, I agree the chance of any official cooperation is close to zero. There is no incentive at all for Tesla if Tesla is making their own adapter anyways (would be different case if Setec had an exclusive). The best thing Setec can hope for is Tesla doesn't go too far and doesn't turn this into a back and forth thing.
 
I ran some errands this evening and tried charging at a ChargePoint station on the way home. I tried both the V157 firmware (which Setec sent me when resolving another problem, described earlier in this thread) and the V158 firmware, a link to which somebody posted a while ago. Both failed in the same way described by others in this thread. I also tried my CHAdeMO adapter, and it worked fine on the same ChargePoint charger. I brought my laptop with me and so recorded logs from my Setec adapter, which I've now sent to Setec. In the past, they've been pretty responsive, so I'm hopeful that they'll be able to work around this issue quickly; however, I do have some concerns....

First, if this was a deliberate attempt by Tesla to render a third-party adapter useless, then Tesla has just begun a game of whack-a-mole. Setec is likely to find a solution to the problem and release an update, whereupon Tesla may find another way to detect and disable the Setec adapter, and round and round. This may have the effect of deterring sales of the Setec adapter (which may be the point), but it means that those of us who've sunk money into these adapters will be inconvenienced at best. If this is the pattern that emerges, Tesla will be shooting themselves in the foot, from a customer-service point of view; they'll come across as petty and vindictive. (Of course, there may be things going on behind the scenes, like legitimate concerns at Tesla about the safety of the Setec adapters; but without communicating such issues to Tesla's own customers, it's very bad PR.)

Furthermore, aside from the experimental Supercharger-spoofing firmware, Setec's current firmware has never damaged a car, AFAIK. By forcing Setec to make changes to the Tesla-side code in the adapters, Tesla will be making it more likely for Setec to introduce a bug that might damage the Tesla. This concerns me a lot. I'd like to load up a newer Setec firmware so that I can use the adapter, but frequent firmware changes make me nervous about the potential for such problems.

Finally, knowledge that this type of breakage has happened once, and may happen again, may deter Tesla-side firmware updates. Certainly I know that if, in the future, my Setec adapter works again, and I'm about to go on a road trip, I won't be accepting any Tesla firmware updates just before leaving (or while on the trip). The possibility of breaking my adapter would certainly not deter me from accepting the upcoming city-streets FSD update, but I might be a little less likely to click on "update" for lesser updates. This could also come around to bite Tesla, since they may want most cars to update to the latest firmware within a reasonable timeframe.

The best-case scenario is that this breakage was accidental, and that it will spur Tesla and Setec to cooperate in the future. This might even help unlock the full 80kW speed from the device. I'm skeptical that it was accidental, and I'm even more skeptical that it will spur better cooperation, but it could happen.
Prefaced with: I own one of these adapters and am super bummed about this because I've used it to great success...

Setec should never have given out the experimental firmware that (confirmed) killed at least two car charging systems, one of which we know was replaced at no cost to the owner by Tesla.

The fact that Tesla incurred a cost because of a faulty 3rd party adapter (and faulty is fair, b/c the firmware f'd up), means they have a lot of ground to stand on when they block these.

More importantly, I'm unlikely to ever use the adapter again, because I'm worried Tesla will 1) know and 2) blame the adapter if I have any future problems.
 
I have one and will try it out this weekend. My guess is that when I use it, my car will update the adapter's internal firmware. Bets?
From other discussions, the car can't update the CHAdeMO adapter's firmware. The CHAdeMO adapter manual says specifically it must be updated by Tesla service:
"As a result, your CHAdeMO adapter may require an occasional firmware update. Firmware updates are performed by Tesla Service."
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/chademo-adapter-manual-in-english.pdf

The service guide says there are special connections necessary to update the CHAdeMO adapter:
Firmware Update - CHAdeMO Charging Adapter
From previous threads, this connection happens on the CHAdeMO side as the car side has no way to supply power to the adapter. That means there is no way for the car to update the CHAdeMO adapter.
CHAdeMO Adapter Tear Down
 
Setec should never have given out the experimental firmware that (confirmed) killed at least two car charging systems, one of which we know was replaced at no cost to the owner by Tesla.

The fact that Tesla incurred a cost because of a faulty 3rd party adapter (and faulty is fair, b/c the firmware f'd up), means they have a lot of ground to stand on when they block these.
Yes, I am almost certain that this is the primary reason Tesla decided they HAD to block these and I absolutely agree with them. If it has just been a plug shape thing that still played within reasonable rules, like the CHAdeMO limits, Tesla probably would have turned a blind eye to this. But since this cost them a few thousand dollars, and they saw that it had to potential to continue happening if Setec kept dinking around with messed up firmware, they needed to try to put a stop to this.

Does anyone have a Tesla Chademo adapter? Does it still work after the update?
That is an interesting question. I will be using mine on Septemeber 28, when I returning from a trip up the infamous Winnemucca gap. And no, the CHAdeMO adapter can't be updated by the car. It needs a special tool that not even all service centers have.
 
I ran some errands this evening and tried charging at a ChargePoint station on the way home. I tried both the V157 firmware (which Setec sent me when resolving another problem, described earlier in this thread) and the V158 firmware, a link to which somebody posted a while ago. Both failed in the same way described by others in this thread.

I also tried my CHAdeMO adapter, and it worked fine on the same ChargePoint charger.
...

Does anyone have a Tesla Chademo adapter? Does it still work after the update?
Remember the Setec presents itself as chademo. These cars have no knowledge of CCS (at least pre-2020)
Yes, a few post above @srs5694 indicated he tried his CHAdeMO adapter when the other failed.
 
Setec should never have given out the experimental firmware that (confirmed) killed at least two car charging systems, one of which we know was replaced at no cost to the owner by Tesla.

The fact that Tesla incurred a cost because of a faulty 3rd party adapter (and faulty is fair, b/c the firmware f'd up), means they have a lot of ground to stand on when they block these.
This raises the question, though: Is Setec's experimental-and-dangerous firmware blocked? The general assumption is that the Setec adapter with the "stock" firmware looks (imperfectly) like Tesla's CHAdeMO adapter to the car, but that the 80kW-unlocking firmware looks (presumably imperfectly) like a Supercharger. Presumably Tesla's latest firmware update picks up on some imperfection in Setec's CHAdeMO-adapter impersonation as a way of blocking it; but if the adapter looks completely different in the 80kW-unlocking mode, the code that blocks it in CHAdeMO-spoofing mode might not block it in Supercharger-spoofing mode. This would be truly ironic if Tesla's reason for blocking the adapter is that a couple of owners used the Supercharger-spoofing firmware and that caused problems. This is all, of course, extremely speculative; Tesla might well have blocked both modes, or they might not look so different to the car, despite appearances (e.g., "charging" vs. "supercharging" on the display).

Well if the chademo adapter still works, then setec can do a better job of impersonating it and things should work again.
In principle, yes; but then it becomes a game of whack-a-mole -- Setec tweaks their CHAdeMO impersonation, Tesla finds some new way to identify this better impersonation, etc. The best-case scenario, for Setec owners, is that Setec eventually impersonates Tesla's CHAdeMO adapter so well that Tesla can't find a way to identify the adapter; but this outcome might not be possible. There could be some very subtle difference in timing, for instance, that Setec couldn't match because of hardware limitations in the adapter's on-board computer. Imagine, by analogy, trying to impersonate an NVMe drive on a hard disk using a special driver. You could get all the protocols right, but you'd never match NVMe performance, and somebody trying to detect the impersonation could use that to figure it out. I'm not saying that Tesla is destined to win if they choose to engage in this game of whack-a-mole, but it's conceivable they might. It's also possible that the current situation was unintentional, or that Tesla won't pursue it very far, or that Setec will be able to so perfectly emulate Tesla's CHAdeMO adapter that Tesla won't be able to reliably identify the Setec device, or that Setec and Tesla will effectively call a truce in this battle.
 
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I find the lack of public anger at the owners that defrauded Tesla with warranty claims arising from electronics damage using the SETEC to be interesting. And sad.

Setec should never have given out the experimental firmware that (confirmed) killed at least two car charging systems, one of which we know was replaced at no cost to the owner by Tesla.

More importantly, I'm unlikely to ever use the adapter again, because I'm worried Tesla will 1) know and 2) blame the adapter if I have any future problems.

Meaning you have lost your fraud card.
 
I find the lack of public anger at the owners that defrauded Tesla with warranty claims arising from electronics damage using the SETEC to be interesting. And sad.





Meaning you have lost your fraud card.
What about my previous words indicates to you that I would make a bogus warranty claim?

I have a 2018 Model 3 that has never once used the setec adapter. Its charge port died a few months ago. If there was a log of it having used the adapter, would they have tried to deny a warranty claim? The early charger port was prone to failure (there was a bad batch at the end of 2018 according to the service tech).

Please don’t level accusations against someone you don’t know based on an assumption of their character.
 
I find the lack of public anger at the owners that defrauded Tesla with warranty claims arising from electronics damage using the SETEC to be interesting. And sad.

Meaning you have lost your fraud card.
Eh, most people won't have much sympathy for large corps given the cases where they deny legit warranty claims is far more than cases where someone gets something covered under warranty through a lie of omission. As another pointed out, the demand for this adapter was driven anyways because Tesla dragged their feet on releasing a CCS1 adapter (something I hope changes quickly with the South Korean one being released).
 
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I find the lack of public anger at the owners that defrauded Tesla with warranty claims arising from electronics damage using the SETEC to be interesting. And sad.





Meaning you have lost your fraud card.

I don't think this is quite fair.

First of all, we don't know what actually caused the defect. We know what triggered it (charging with a third-party adapter that attempted to emulate Superchargers), but a trigger is not the same as a cause. The presumed cause is that Setec's protocol violation was somehow mishandled on the Tesla side, leading to an overload of some kind, which then resulted in damage. If we accept that hypothesis, then here is how I view it:

My professional background is in software engineering, specifically network protocol design and implementation. One of the most basic principles is that, whenever two sides talk to each other, each side is responsible for protecting its own environment, including hardware, software, system state etc, regardless of whatever protocol violations the other side commits. The worst case scenario of a protocol violation should be that the communication and related activities (i.e. charging) fail. Hardware defects as a result of protocol violations are unacceptable. Always. Period. This means it is the responsibility of Setec to ensure that protocol violations by Tesla do not break the Setec adapter, but it is the responsibility of Tesla to ensure that protocol violations by Setec do not cause damage to Tesla's cars.

If you accept that basic premise, then Tesla is responsible for any damage to Tesla cars happening during charging regardless of how, why or by whom the protocol violation happened, so there is no question of fraud here, because it simply does not matter which adapter or firmware was used. This is also likely how regulators would look at this. To me this incident is a black eye for Tesla more than Setec. Tesla's firmware is supposed to protect cars against this sort of thing, and it did not in this case. We don't even know the full extent of the problem, just that some PCBs were fried. Was the charging curve violated? If so, did some battery cells get damaged, and was the battery close to catching fire? What QA procedures does Tesla have in place to prevent these incidents, and why were they unsuccessful here? If regulators or lawyers ever look at these incidents then those are the questions they will ask, not whether Setec provided a beta firmware to their customers.

I also do not quite buy the assumption that Tesla is/was somehow strongly opposed to the Setec adapter, as suggested by some. If Tesla had been, then they could long have acted. The Setec adapter likely violates Tesla's patents, at least when emulating Superchargers, so cease & desist letters, lawsuits and web site / sales listing take down notices would have been easy for Tesla, yet they apparently did nothing, which suggest tacit acceptance or approval. Understandable, because an "unofficial feature" of CCS support might boost sales of Tesla cars. Nor do I believe that the recent black-listing by Tesla is in any way related to the upcoming Korean CCS adapter. The timing makes no sense for that. Tesla would have waited longer, until closer to availability of the Korean adapter, to block Setec if competition was their concern. Also, I somewhat doubt that Tesla even sees Setec as competition. My impression has been, especially looking at ChaDeMo charger availability, that Tesla sees charging adapters as more of a necessary evil, not as their core business, and that they want to produce and sell only as many of them as needed, and rather preserve chips and other critical resources for cars and Superchargers. I expect the same thing to happen with the Korean CCS adapter, if we ever see it in the U.S., i.e. a slow roll-out and inconsistent availability.

As for Tesla's reaction to block Setec: that is completely logical, and I don't even see it as anti-competitive or retaliatory, just as prudent. Here is what I think happened: Tesla found out about the two incidents, and they were just as surprised about it as Setec. They then probably bought a Setec adapter, reproduced the problem, and started analyzing the cause. The black-listing of the Setec adapter seems to be simply a reaction to that. My guess is that a true fix of the protection mechanism of Tesla's firmware would have taken too long to develop and test, so black-listing the adapter had to be done as a stopgap measure. What this does suggest is that Tesla took that damage pretty seriously. Otherwise they would have not risked angering some of their customers by black-listing the adapter.

One question is if anything else is happening behind the scenes. Are Tesla and Setec talking to each other? On friendly terms? I don't buy the argument that Tesla is somehow upset with Setec because of damage to two of Tesla's cars. For a company the size of Tesla that repair cost is minuscule compared to the value of the test results Tesla gained in the process. Also, Tesla has to know that, unless Tesla goes after Setec legally, Setec will try a "cat & mouse" game to keep their adapter sales going, which cannot be in Tesla's interest, since it would tie up valuable Engineering resources for Tesla and would cause continuous aggravation for Tesla's customers. Instead Tesla may actually decide to cooperate with Setec, to ensure that at least Setec's ChaDeMo emulation is fully tested and approved by both sides. That would be a win-win-win for Tesla, Setec and us.

Beyond that, there is the interesting question to what extent the tightly integrated "verticals" were a contributing factor here, i.e. protocol design, Supercharger design and manufacturing, car charging board design and manufacturing, firmware etc. all from a single company. That is convenient for customers, but can easily lead to insufficient QA due to lack of matrix compatibility testing. Tesla needs to be careful not to run into a similar problem when they open up their Superchargers to other vendors (with some cars by other vendors perhaps subtly violating CCS and causing damage to Superchargers, since Superchargers previously may only have been tested against Tesla's own cars).