Software Update 2018.39 4a3910f (plus other v9.0 early access builds)

[sandpiper]

Probably because the code that enables the feature was written from scratch using their new neural net. Basically, AP1 and AP2 cars are probably operating on completely different systems now that may not be backward compatible anymore.

More likely, Tesla isn't going to invest a lot of money in adding new features to older cars. And I think that's reasonable. They already provide updates to existing vehicles at a level way above what you get from any other automaker.

Most automakers charge you a few hundred bucks for an update to the bloody nav system database. Don't even imagine them spending a single red cent to incorporate ANY new features in any car that's departed the factory.

 

[Saghost]

Thanks for all the screenshots @dennis_d !!


I am disappointed, but not really surprised that the full auto lane change is “at your own risk”. So, the car starts moving out of the lane, potentially rapidly, and you had better do a shoulder check RIGHT NOW to make sure it has it right.

I am a bit fascinated they did that, and will be curious if that stands up to regulators over the long haul. I am sure we will soon see posts of folks who set it to Mad Max and fully auto, then the car clips someone while they were taking a sip of coffee and didn’t get time to look and they blame Tesla and the media starts picking those stories up.

You would think that Tesla would have figured out by now that a portion of their customer base is always going to push everything to the limit and past it, and would have only released that feature when it was actually Level 3. (It’s hard to say it is Level 3 when the driver is still fully responsible for the car auto initiating the lane change)

It also makes me wonder if we will ever get any actual level 3 features similar to Audi’s Level 3 traffic jam mode.

It seems to me like they've already got everything needed for level 3 on ramp to off ramp in place except the error handling and laws for the liability transfer.

The error handling part is hard - seeing potholes, road debris, and deer in time to give the driver several seconds to see and react (or else reacting without the driver, which may actually be easier.)

The liability transfer may be even harder, especially since it's state by state. Does your state have a distracted driving law? If so, how does a level 3 car get handled? How does the police officer that sees you on your cell phone know if the car is on FSD?

 

[rnortman]

Thanks for all the screenshots @dennis_d !!


I am disappointed, but not really surprised that the full auto lane change is “at your own risk”. So, the car starts moving out of the lane, potentially rapidly, and you had better do a shoulder check RIGHT NOW to make sure it has it right.

I am a bit fascinated they did that, and will be curious if that stands up to regulators over the long haul. I am sure we will soon see posts of folks who set it to Mad Max and fully auto, then the car clips someone while they were taking a sip of coffee and didn’t get time to look and they blame Tesla and the media starts picking those stories up.

You would think that Tesla would have figured out by now that a portion of their customer base is always going to push everything to the limit and past it, and would have only released that feature when it was actually Level 3. (It’s hard to say it is Level 3 when the driver is still fully responsible for the car auto initiating the lane change)

It also makes me wonder if we will ever get any actual level 3 features similar to Audi’s Level 3 traffic jam mode.

Yeah, this is really the worst possible outcome -- Tesla knows they can't accept legal responsibility for these lane changes, they need to keep liability with the owners/drivers. But they know that having to confirm every lane change will make the feature nearly useless, at least in traffic where your opportunities come and go quickly without time for confirmation. So they give us a feature that's largely useless unless we accept responsibility by sliding that little switch to accept responsibility for what AP does. They get to avoid liability while still claiming to have delivered EAP features.

We'll see how this plays out on the roads, in the courts, and in the media. After a couple of high-profile accidents that the option to not confirm lane changes may disappear.

 

[gt2690b]

yes, I will search have not had much time to play yet, have some issues i'm working through ( aka getting the kids to school )

ok, I think I found it, should have a video in an hour or so.

 

[sandpiper]

Yeah wow! that will keep our attention at 100%. We will all be more exhausted at the end of journey than if we just drove it ourselves without driver assistances.

There will be a working in period as people learn the behavior of the system. This was the same with the original autopilot. We can expect that, as weaknesses show themselves, Tesla will make appropriate updates. And people will start to become comfortable with it. We can expect that Tesla is going to be pretty careful about how they do this.

 

[sandpiper]

Probably the side cameras.

Ultrasonics are primary for sure. That's what all other manufacturers use. I could see the side cameras offering a second check at some point.

 

[croman]

Liability has nothing to do with autonomy.

 

[Saghost]

Ultrasonics are primary for sure. That's what all other manufacturers use. I could see the side cameras offering a second check at some point.

I think most manufacturers use short range radar.

Tesla has used ultrasonics on AP1 and AP2 up until now. It works, but not quickly or as reliably as I'd prefer.

I'm pretty sure the new system will be doing object recognition or motion tracking against the fender cameras as the primary, backed by ultrasonics.

 

[boonedocks]

Any word yet on whether V9.0 contains parked Fire Truck avoidance features. Didn't see that in any of the screen shots.

 

[diplomat33]

Thanks for all the screenshots @dennis_d !!

I am disappointed, but not really surprised that the full auto lane change is “at your own risk”. So, the car starts moving out of the lane, potentially rapidly, and you had better do a shoulder check RIGHT NOW to make sure it has it right.

That's not how it works. My understanding is that if you enable the confirmation that autopilot will wait for you to hit the turn signal before making the lane change. So you can take your time to check your blind spots first and then give permission for autopilot to make the lane change. So no, you don't need to do a should check right now because the car will do a lane change on its own without warning. And if you disable the confirmation, then the car checks your blind spots for you before making the auto lane change. My understanding is that V9 enables all the cameras now, so autopilot is now using the side cameras to check your blind spots for you. So the car is not making auto lane changes blindly.

Plus, the "shoulder check" is an obsolete and antiquated driving technique in the modern age. In a Tesla, we have side mirrors, rear view mirror, read camera view and now with V9, the car uses the cameras to check your blind spots, and displays car behind you on your driver screen. So the driver has 3 redundant ways to check for blind spots that are better than the "shoulder check".

You would think that Tesla would have figured out by now that a portion of their customer base is always going to push everything to the limit and past it, and would have only released that feature when it was actually Level 3. (It’s hard to say it is Level 3 when the driver is still fully responsible for the car auto initiating the lane change)

It also makes me wonder if we will ever get any actual level 3 features similar to Audi’s Level 3 traffic jam mode.

The way I see it is that if you enable the confirmation, you get to decide when the car makes the auto lane change. That's level 2. If you disable the confirmation, you are essentially treating the feature as level 3 because you are letting the car do the auto lane change on its own.

 

[BigD0g]

Video delayed, but I want to give a special thank you to @nemSoma for the firmware to make it all possible. I've got pulled into stuff that actually pays my bills, but I haven't forgotten you all.

 

[Kuhz]

8 months is a 2018 build date so it should have AP2.5? Mine is an Aug 17 build and the VIN lookup says I have 2.5?

Which VIN lookup? I have a 08/17 build and wondering if I have 2.0 or 2.5

 

[Az_Rael]

My understanding is that if you enable the confirmation that autopilot will wait for you to hit the turn signal before making the lane change.

That is not correct based on the screen shot. If you turn off auto lane change confirmation, the car a WILL initiate a lane change without your input and potentially very rapidly.

I understand shoulder checks are outdated, I have my mirrors adjusted properly. But average Joe doesn’t and will need to do a shoulder check. The car will already be relying on the sensor data shown on the screen, so the issues are going to be when those are wrong.

 

[dark cloud]

The liability transfer may be even harder, especially since it's state by state. Does your state have a distracted driving law? If so, how does a level 3 car get handled? How does the police officer that sees you on your cell phone know if the car is on FSD?

It does not matter. FSD or not the driver needs to pay attention at all times. Any use of electronic device means you are not.

If you want to use your hand held device while in the car you will need to do what the rich Chinese do; sit in the back and hire a chauffeur.

 

[Saghost]

It does not matter. FSD or not the driver needs to pay attention at all times. Any use of electronic device means you are not.

If you want to use your hand held device while in the car you will need to do what the rich Chinese do; sit in the back and hire a chauffeur.

But the whole point of level 3 and higher autonomy is that the driver is not expected to pay attention or control the car at all times.

 

[sandpiper]

I think most manufacturers use short range radar.

Tesla has used ultrasonics on AP1 and AP2 up until now. It works, but not quickly or as reliably as I'd prefer.

I'm pretty sure the new system will be doing object recognition or motion tracking against the fender cameras as the primary, backed by ultrasonics.

Short range radar makes sense... although I've no familiarity with that. I seriously doubt that it's vision only. At most it would be enabling a lane change if BOTH U/S and vision say it's okay.

 

[diplomat33]

That is not correct based on the screen shot. If you turn off auto lane change confirmation, the car a WILL initiate a lane change without your input and potentially very rapidly.

My quote you used was not about that. My quote was about when you turn ON confirmation. Later I talk about turning OFF confirmation and I say the exact same thing you just said.

Your concern about the car doing an auto lane on its own, giving you no time to do a "shoulder check" is only a valid concern if the person opts to turn OFF confirmations. If the person leaves confirmations ON then it is not an issue. But that's the whole point of the big "are you sure?" message when you opt out of confirmations. Tesla is reminding the driver that yes, if they opt out of the confirmations that the car will make auto lane changes without warning so are they sure they are ok with that"

I understand shoulder checks are outdated, I have my mirrors adjusted properly. But average Joe doesn’t and will need to do a shoulder check. The car will already be relying on the sensor data shown on the screen, so the issues are going to be when those are wrong.

I think it boils down to do you trust the car or not. I understand the skepticism. If you think the car's sensors and computer cannot be trusted as good as a person then you will probably always be skeptical of level 3 autonomy and you will want to do a "shoulder check" to make sure the car is doing the right thing. But if and when the car's sensors and computers are good enough to do things like blind spot checks, then you won't need to worry. At that point, you can let the car do auto lane changes on its own.

 

[HankLloydRight]

. I've seen many owners replace the rear camera with the newer 2016 model to bring the quality on-par with newer models.

Just FYI, the 'updated' rear cameras people have installed are the exact same resolution as the old cameras (720p)... the new cameras only offer slightly better lower-light response (and lower cost). See this thread for more details: Comparing four different front camera setups

 

[beardo]

I think it boils down to do you trust the car or not. I understand the skepticism. If you think the car's sensors and computer cannot be trusted as good as a person then you will probably always be skeptical of level 3 autonomy and you will want to do a "shoulder check" to make sure the car is doing the right thing. But if and when the car's sensors and computers are good enough to do things like blind spot checks, then you won't need to worry. At that point, you can let the car do auto lane changes on its own.

There's a difference between doing a blind spot check at short range and checking that a car coming up from behind at a higher speed will not hit you 2 seconds after doing the lane swap. The car needs to look and check a lot further back down the road than the current blind spot systems do to enable auto lane change? There's no way you can rely on the ultrasonics to do that so they must be using cameras to know what the traffic behind is up to.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Yeah wow! that will keep our attention at 100%. We will all be more exhausted at the end of journey than if we just drove it ourselves without driver assistances.

not sure what seat warmers had to do with that...........