Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[maximizese]

This might not a be popular thought given the consensus of outrage over here, but I'll caveat this by saying correlation does not equal causation: Since the software update 2019.16.x have there been any spontaneous battery fires with 60/70/75/85/90 kWh packs? Now I know that having your car not spontaneously immolate is a low bar and somewhat an expectation, but it seems like Tesla solved a very important problem. Nevermind the fact that they created new problems with limiting range, inconveniencing owners by slower Supercharging sessions and subsequently creating congestion at the Supercharging lots, and have been very tight-lipped about things from the beginning.

I didn't mind at first because I thought safety should come first, and I thought a simple remedy would be released shortly thereafter along with an explanation. Boy was I naive, but I'm only about a year into my relationship with Tesla. I'm still hopefully waiting, but not holding my breath. For now, our S85 stays at home for trips beyond 350 miles round-trip; I'm glad I didn't give away my old TDI. 700 mile range with a 12% modified taller 5th gear set.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

This might not a be popular thought given the consensus of outrage over here, but I'll caveat this by saying correlation does not equal causation: Since the software update 2019.16.x have there been any spontaneous battery fires with 60/70/75/85/90 kWh packs? Now I know that having your car not spontaneously immolate is a low bar and somewhat an expectation, but it seems like Tesla solved a very important problem. Nevermind the fact that they created new problems with limiting range, inconveniencing owners by slower Supercharging sessions and subsequently creating congestion at the Supercharging lots, and have been very tight-lipped about things from the beginning.

I didn't mind at first because I thought safety should come first, and I thought a simple remedy would be released shortly thereafter along with an explanation. Boy was I naive, but I'm only about a year into my relationship with Tesla. I'm still hopefully waiting, but not holding my breath. For now, our S85 stays at home for trips beyond 350 miles round-trip; I'm glad I didn't give away my old TDI. 700 mile range with a 12% modified taller 5th gear set.

Correlation absolutely does not equal causation. Agreed.
There have not been any spontaneous battery fires with 60/70/75/85/90 packs. Agreed.
I am only aware of about half a dozen or so spontaneous battery fires, out of 750,000 vehicles (not sure of the max number, but I’m pretty sure it’s in the hundreds of thousands.). So I would say the lack of spontaneous fires is an expected result. So I agree, no credible correlation.

I think we were all a bit guilty of naivety. Tesla’s current behaviour and attitude is, for me, not what I had experienced in the past. It’s a definite sea change, for the worse.

I think I would classify myself as hopefully waiting, My hope more than a little reinforced by the NHTSA investigation.

I have already had to cancel this year’s long trip, because my Range is insufficient to get between Superchargers on the Continent. Sadly I sold my previous ICE when I bought my Tesla, and herself's car is also an EV, but with only 80-100 mile 4ange depending on the season. So we had to fly. Ugh!

So, I would say I agree with the majority of your post. Apart from I don’t think you are unpopular.

#wink.

 

[Az_Rael]

Did a voltage check during a 100% charge on our early 2015 P85D and confirmed it is not affected by the cap. It charged up to 4.197 cell Vmax and a displayed range of 243 before I pulled the cord since we needed to head out. It wasn’t quite done, but had gotten close enough that I could see the numbers were good. I have no idea if this car has been affected by the charging issue as we hardly ever supercharge.

Still waiting to measure my 3 (which did recently experience a range drop from 324 to 308), as the EVTV cable I bought doesn’t work with Scan My Tesla, so I am waiting for a 2nd cable to arrive now.


On another note: what are folks using to read the log CSV files from ScanMyTesla? I can’t get the UDPLogger program to run as Windows 10 keeps blocking it. The file is too big for Excel, so need something else to read it.

 

[cpa]

See post#7581. The anthelmintic has already been developed and suggested to at least one owner. See below under Tips:

View attachment 474686

Ahh, but that just treats the symptoms; it does not provide a cure!

Here, take this shot of morphine. You'll feel better in no time.

 

[omarsultan]

This might not a be popular thought given the consensus of outrage over here, but I'll caveat this by saying correlation does not equal causation: Since the software update 2019.16.x have there been any spontaneous battery fires with 60/70/75/85/90 kWh packs? Now I know that having your car not spontaneously immolate is a low bar and somewhat an expectation, but it seems like Tesla solved a very important problem. Nevermind the fact that they created new problems with limiting range, inconveniencing owners by slower Supercharging sessions and subsequently creating congestion at the Supercharging lots, and have been very tight-lipped about things from the beginning.

I don't think you'll get a lot of pushback on the first part--moving quickly to address a potential safety issue is something I think most owners would expect and applaud.

The thing is, that is speculation--we don't know why they did what they did. It could be a safety issue they are trying to mitigate or could be move to avoid covering battery warranties or it could be something else. We don't really know and Tesla has done nothing to clarify the situation. The response to queries is uniformly some sort of "it's fine" boilerplate. In both scenarios, it seems there is an issue with the battery packs/BMS that they are doing their best to avoid talking about.

I am also in the "cautiously hopeful" camp that Tesla is the company we thought it was, but, if I were being completely honest with myself, their recent actions make that optimism seem somewhat naïve.

 

[trayloader]

Are you referring to shortening of time for the SEI layer formation to take place when the batteries are charged for the first time at the factory?

Yessir.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330902286_LITHIUM-ION_BATTERY_CELL_PRODUCTION_PROCESS

and here was a discussion back then on TMC, and how quality assurance is "shared" between the "partners":
Tesla Gigafactory

I am by no means an expert and my take on this is pure speculation, but if you read this paper which is highly informative, especially when it comes to the aging/curing process that at the same time is slow as molasses, proves to be the most critical step in a batteries quality control thus longlife, and can be sped up (high temperature aging) it´s beginning to smell like a classic honeypot to "optimize" for speed. Plus the cells are "graded" for quality in the finishing step after the aging, and if we think for a second about the yellow border syndrome and display quality compromises, it might make sense to speculate further. Maybe @IngTH and/or @Alchemist42 who seem to be experts in battery research can weigh in.

 

[MP3Mike]

Yessir.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330902286_LITHIUM-ION_BATTERY_CELL_PRODUCTION_PROCESS

I am by no means an expert and my take on this is pure speculation, but if you read this paper which is highly informative, especially when it comes to the aging/curing process that at the same time is slow as molasses, proves to be the most critical step in a batteries quality control thus longlife, and can be sped up (high temperature aging) it´s beginning to smell like a classic honeypot to "optimize" for speed. Maybe @IngTH and/or @Alchemist42 who seem to be experts in this field can weigh in.

I seem to recall there was some mention that Panasonic does the majority of the aging of the 18650 cells while they are being transported from Japan to Fremont.

 

[DJRas]

This might not a be popular thought given the consensus of outrage over here, but I'll caveat this by saying correlation does not equal causation: Since the software update 2019.16.x have there been any spontaneous battery fires with 60/70/75/85/90 kWh packs? Now I know that having your car not spontaneously immolate is a low bar and somewhat an expectation, but it seems like Tesla solved a very important problem. Nevermind the fact that they created new problems with limiting range, inconveniencing owners by slower Supercharging sessions and subsequently creating congestion at the Supercharging lots, and have been very tight-lipped about things from the beginning.

I didn't mind at first because I thought safety should come first, and I thought a simple remedy would be released shortly thereafter along with an explanation. Boy was I naive, but I'm only about a year into my relationship with Tesla. I'm still hopefully waiting, but not holding my breath. For now, our S85 stays at home for trips beyond 350 miles round-trip; I'm glad I didn't give away my old TDI. 700 mile range with a 12% modified taller 5th gear set.

Yes, there was one fire in Germany on July 30.
There are something over 100,000 Model S older than 2017.

 

[DJRas]

Did a voltage check during a 100% charge on our early 2015 P85D and confirmed it is not affected by the cap. It charged up to 4.197 cell Vmax and a displayed range of 243 before I pulled the cord since we needed to head out. It wasn’t quite done, but had gotten close enough that I could see the numbers were good. I have no idea if this car has been affected by the charging issue as we hardly ever supercharge.

Still waiting to measure my 3 (which did recently experience a range drop from 324 to 308), as the EVTV cable I bought doesn’t work with Scan My Tesla, so I am waiting for a 2nd cable to arrive now.


On another note: what are folks using to read the log CSV files from ScanMyTesla? I can’t get the UDPLogger program to run as Windows 10 keeps blocking it. The file is too big for Excel, so need something else to read it.

I use Excel on these huge files with 6 million lines

 

[trayloader]

Yessir.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330902286_LITHIUM-ION_BATTERY_CELL_PRODUCTION_PROCESS

and here was a discussion back then on TMC, and how quality assurance is "shared" between the "partners":
Tesla Gigafactory

I am by no means an expert and my take on this is pure speculation, but if you read this paper which is highly informative, especially when it comes to the aging/curing process that at the same time is slow as molasses, proves to be the most critical step in a batteries quality control thus longlife, and can be sped up (high temperature aging) it´s beginning to smell like a classic honeypot to "optimize" for speed. Plus the cells are "graded" for quality in the finishing step after the aging, and if we think for a second about the yellow border syndrome and display quality compromises, it might make sense to speculate further. Maybe @IngTH and/or @Alchemist42 who seem to be experts in battery research can weigh in.

Further observations: the insider who was leaking main informations back then in the above linked GF thread, @GigaGrunt shows a pretty similar writing style to a famous Twitter expert. So much insider info and product planning, that only a top executive qualifies

 

[Az_Rael]

I use Excel on these huge files with 6 million lines

How did you get Excel to open the whole file? My Excel is truncating the file at row 1048576.

 

[Droschke]

Yessir.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330902286_LITHIUM-ION_BATTERY_CELL_PRODUCTION_PROCESS

and here was a discussion back then on TMC, and how quality assurance is "shared" between the "partners":
Tesla Gigafactory

I am by no means an expert and my take on this is pure speculation, but if you read this paper which is highly informative, especially when it comes to the aging/curing process that at the same time is slow as molasses, proves to be the most critical step in a batteries quality control thus longlife, and can be sped up (high temperature aging) it´s beginning to smell like a classic honeypot to "optimize" for speed. Plus the cells are "graded" for quality in the finishing step after the aging, and if we think for a second about the yellow border syndrome and display quality compromises, it might make sense to speculate further. Maybe @IngTH and/or @Alchemist42 who seem to be experts in battery research can weigh in.

Thanks for the info and the referenced links. Very interesting. I need to read more than just a glance.

Further observations: the insider who was leaking main informations back then in the above linked GF thread, @GigaGrunt shows a pretty similar writing style to a famous Twitter expert. So much insider info and product planning, that only a top executive qualifies

Yup, I know who that might be. We need to know if "A large room just holding cells in a cure state would be a huge waste of space and inventory" is taking shortcut.

@IngTH , @Alchemist42: What's you take on this?

 

[David99]

I think the issue is bigger than it first appears. The reduction of range is bad enough. It's true stolen battery capacity that is limiting the car's range. But it's compounded by the other limitations. The reduction is charge speed makes every road trip and every visit at the supercharger longer. (charge speed is one of the most advertised advantages by Tesla). The much reduced charge rate when going beyond 80% makes it less practical charging to a high level thus indirectly reducing the range even more. Last but not least, the car now cools the battery down a lot when you charge to 80% or higher. The battery gets warm while charging so once you hit 80% there is a lot of energy needed to cool the battery down. I have been monitoring and measuring this for the last weeks and found that after I unplug the car will then run the AC for 20 almost full blast to cool the battery and then ramp down for another 10 min. The total energy used for this process is the equivalent of apox 7-10 miles.

we have lost range (capacity gone)
we lose another 7-10 miles due to battery cooling when charging to 80% or higher.
we are severely limited in using the remaining capacity because a charge to 100% (even to 95%) takes an excessive amount of time
The reduced charge speed makes road trips slower by almost doubling the charge times

I feel my car has been crippled severely on many levels. I was aware and accepted the fact that Tesla keeps pushing technology and will have a better car with better specs soon after I bought mine. I don't mind that a Model 3 now goes faster and farther than my Model S for half the price. What I'm not OK with is the significant crippling and downgrading of my car. It's unacceptable.

 

[doctorwho]

I'm wondering if a mitigation strategy for Tesla (as an alternative to my preferred option of a new battery) might be to supply Raven motors and aero wheels to all affected cars. They'd need to come up with a way of managing this for single motor cars like mine, however, it may restore the range and be cheaper for Tesla if they somehow wriggle out of the preferred option.
It doesn't solve the charging issues, but it would at least address the range issues somewhat, at least for dual-motor cars

 

[David99]

I'm wondering if a mitigation strategy for Tesla (as an alternative to my preferred option of a new battery) might be to supply Raven motors and aero wheels to all affected cars. They'd need to come up with a way of managing this for single motor cars like mine, however, it may restore the range and be cheaper for Tesla if they somehow wriggle out of the preferred option.
It doesn't solve the charging issues, but it would at least address the range issues somewhat, at least for dual-motor cars

Retrofitting more efficient drive trains would be very expensive and not solve the issue with the batteries. What we need to keep in mind that this might not be the end of it. Tesla might deem it necessary to reduce/cripple/limit the battery and car more in the future as the batteries develop more and advanced issues. Only a fixed battery will solve the root of the problem.

 

[Droschke]

I think the issue is bigger than it first appears. The reduction of range is bad enough. It's true stolen battery capacity that is limiting the car's range. But it's compounded by the other limitations. The reduction is charge speed makes every road trip and every visit at the supercharger longer. (charge speed is one of the most advertised advantages by Tesla). The much reduced charge rate when going beyond 80% makes it less practical charging to a high level thus indirectly reducing the range even more. Last but not least, the car now cools the battery down a lot when you charge to 80% or higher. The battery gets warm while charging so once you hit 80% there is a lot of energy needed to cool the battery down. I have been monitoring and measuring this for the last weeks and found that after I unplug the car will then run the AC for 20 almost full blast to cool the battery and then ramp down for another 10 min. The total energy used for this process is the equivalent of apox 7-10 miles.

we have lost range (capacity gone)
we lose another 7-10 miles due to battery cooling when charging to 80% or higher.
we are severely limited in using the remaining capacity because a charge to 100% (even to 95%) takes an excessive amount of time
The reduced charge speed makes road trips slower by almost doubling the charge times

I feel my car has been crippled severely on many levels. I was aware and accepted the fact that Tesla keeps pushing technology and will have a better car with better specs soon after I bought mine. I don't mind that a Model 3 now goes faster and farther than my Model S for half the price. What I'm not OK with is the significant crippling and downgrading of my car. It's unacceptable.

Even though they have paid half of what we paid for our cars, no one knows if Model 3's wont be in the same situation four years from now.

 

[doctorwho]

Retrofitting more efficient drive trains would be very expensive and not solve the issue with the batteries. What we need to keep in mind that this might not be the end of it. Tesla might deem it necessary to reduce/cripple/limit the battery and car more in the future as the batteries develop more and advanced issues. Only a fixed battery will solve the root of the problem.

Yes, a new pack is a correct remedy. Failing that though...

 

[Droschke]

we have lost range (capacity gone)
we lose another 7-10 miles due to battery cooling when charging to 80% or higher.
we are severely limited in using the remaining capacity because a charge to 100% (even to 95%) takes an excessive amount of time
The reduced charge speed makes road trips slower by almost doubling the charge times

I feel my car has been crippled severely on many levels.

+
We have lost resale value
We have lost performance (P/D/L cars)

 

[MikeyC]

I still say the only way this is going to be truly solved is if a legal ruling is made as to the magnitude of what has been done. How much performance (both operation and range) can a manufacturer take in order to address a safety issue? Owners have an expectation that their vehicle should maintain a reasonable level of performance during the warranty period. I don't think it would have been an issue if we were talking about 2 miles and 2 kW of charging speed. But can they take 10 miles and 10 kW? 20? 50? At some point, you'll get to a threshold where some governing body is going to have to rule that if you exceed a certain percentage when removing range, charging speed, or performance, you are required to provide a proper fix instead. And the problem with this is that getting any governing body to make even a small change typically takes 18 months. By the time any ruling is made, everyone affected may be out of warranty anyway.

Mike

 

[doctorwho]

+
We have lost resale value
We have lost performance (P/D/L cars)

Ss have also lost performance, it isn't just P/D/L cars