cpa
Active Member
Regrettably, you'll be on the hook for the sales tax and the license, joking or not!
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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software
- Thread starter Dutchmeeuw
- Start date
Regrettably, you'll be on the hook for the sales tax and the license, joking or not!
CuriousG
Active Member
Except the latter method leaves you lighter in the wallet.
SmartElectric
Active Member
Model 3 is an entirely different battery cell, pack architecture with heating/cooling and otherwise conditioning the battery entirely differently.
The Model S/X, vehicles that are the primary subject of this thread have a specific pack hydronic heater core that must be activated specifically to warm a battery to a suitable temperature for supercharging. Alternatively (as I explained) there is a way to force the rear motor to heat up under hard acceleration and use that excess heat to warm the battery of an S/X.
A Model 3 "under the same conditions" is an incorrect and non-factual comparison to make, period, full stop. It doesn't matter what a Model 3 does in the same external weather and driving conditions.
What matters is that the S/X have very specific to them design for pack temperature management, and I specifically outlined a method to force an S or X to raise the pack temperature to ensure faster charging. Claiming a 3 charges quickly in the same conditions without said method means nothing and is not a relevant addition to a thread specific to S/X battery conditions.
lightningltd
Member
Interesting read on Tesla battery technology... May shed some light on what Tesla is really doing..
Still does not make it right. They need to give us larger packs if they are reducing voltage max so we get what we paid for...
A Look at Tesla’s Latest Battery Technologies
Quote:
Most Li-ion batteries have a maximum charged voltage of 4.20V/cell, and every reduction in peak charge voltage of 0.10V/cell is said to double the cycle life. For example, a lithium-ion cell charged to 4.20V/cell typically delivers 300–500 cycles. If charged to only 4.10V/cell, the life can be prolonged to 600–1,000 cycles; 4.0V/cell should deliver 1,200–2,000 and 3.90V/cell should provide 2,400–4,000 cycles. A lower peak charge voltage reduces the capacity the battery stores. As a guideline, every 70mV reduction in charge voltage lowers the overall capacity by 10%. For absolute best longevity, the optimal charge voltage is 3.92V/cell (this may vary with chemistry). Reports I’ve seen say that this threshold eliminates all voltage-related stresses; going lower may not gain further benefits, and may induce other symptoms. End Quote
Voltages look familiar?
Still does not make it right. They need to give us larger packs if they are reducing voltage max so we get what we paid for...
A Look at Tesla’s Latest Battery Technologies
Quote:
Most Li-ion batteries have a maximum charged voltage of 4.20V/cell, and every reduction in peak charge voltage of 0.10V/cell is said to double the cycle life. For example, a lithium-ion cell charged to 4.20V/cell typically delivers 300–500 cycles. If charged to only 4.10V/cell, the life can be prolonged to 600–1,000 cycles; 4.0V/cell should deliver 1,200–2,000 and 3.90V/cell should provide 2,400–4,000 cycles. A lower peak charge voltage reduces the capacity the battery stores. As a guideline, every 70mV reduction in charge voltage lowers the overall capacity by 10%. For absolute best longevity, the optimal charge voltage is 3.92V/cell (this may vary with chemistry). Reports I’ve seen say that this threshold eliminates all voltage-related stresses; going lower may not gain further benefits, and may induce other symptoms. End Quote
Voltages look familiar?
DJRas
Member
Well... I have done well over 900 charge cycles most only to 90%.Interesting read on Tesla battery technology... May shed some light on what Tesla is really doing..
Still does not make it right. They need to give us larger packs if they are reducing voltage max so we get what we paid for...
A Look at Tesla’s Latest Battery Technologies
Quote:
Most Li-ion batteries have a maximum charged voltage of 4.20V/cell, and every reduction in peak charge voltage of 0.10V/cell is said to double the cycle life. For example, a lithium-ion cell charged to 4.20V/cell typically delivers 300–500 cycles. If charged to only 4.10V/cell, the life can be prolonged to 600–1,000 cycles; 4.0V/cell should deliver 1,200–2,000 and 3.90V/cell should provide 2,400–4,000 cycles. A lower peak charge voltage reduces the capacity the battery stores. As a guideline, every 70mV reduction in charge voltage lowers the overall capacity by 10%. For absolute best longevity, the optimal charge voltage is 3.92V/cell (this may vary with chemistry). Reports I’ve seen say that this threshold eliminates all voltage-related stresses; going lower may not gain further benefits, and may induce other symptoms. End Quote
Voltages look familiar?
So, the quiescent voltage of about 4.13 volts at 90% but the charge voltage peaked at 4.2 to get there.
lightningltd
Member
I was just providing another data point.
Of course they OWE us for the loss in power capacity. Optimum voltage is TESLAS problem, not mine. I want what I PAID for.
I do not want money. I want the KW I paid for at the charge rate they advertise and that we USED to get.
faughtz
Model S P85DL
kW in and kW out, that we paid for...
islandbayy
Active Member
I had inverter failure in the middle of a left hand turn through an intersection. Nearly smashed by a Semi before it started working and accelerated full speed.
eye.surgeon
Active Member
It seems somewhat redundant to chime in at this point after 395 pages, but I just stumbled across this thread and was both relieved to know I'm not crazy and frustrated that early adopters are being kept in the dark by Tesla regarding this issue. I say not crazy because I thought I was the only one that was experiencing a dramatic slowdown in supercharger speed. My 2014 AP S85 with 41k miles supercharges dramatically slower than it did originally. I never see charge rates over about 66 kw when I used to see over 100 kw regularly.
Blu Zap
Grinning member
Okay, misery loves company! Has your battery capacity dropped? I lost 15% overnight with 2019.16.1. My SuC issue is at the top end. It takes one hour to charge from 95% to 100%. Found that out on a long road trip. Interested to know what your kWh battery capacity is now.
doctorwho
Active Member
I suoercharged today and got to 78kW/hr for a few minutes. I was almost dancing beside the car. That's the highest charge rate I've had since 16.1
My 85D suffers from chargegate but I still saw 126kwh briefly the other day as reported here, Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software
It could be that there are different levels of chargegate being applied depending on the batteryt itself alonside battery temp, battery SOC and power availability from the SC post you’re connected to.
DJRas
Member
This is definitely the case.
Sometimes I can't get above 80 kW but a few times recently I saw well over 100 kW.
Same Supercharger, same drive to there, similar outside temps.
Yet more mysteries hidden by Tesla.
Not redundant at all. It just adds to the data point that many owners still do not know they are impacted by the deliberate batterygate and/or chargegate fiasco. Thanks for stopping by.
SmartElectric
Active Member
Try the method to preheat the battery with full accel / full decell and repeat and let us know.
It has always worked for me to get reasonable rates.
My wife who "drives the car" gets high supercharging rates far less often than I do.
I am sure pack temps have something to do with it, but there seems to be something more than just that. Last week, I had been driving for 90 min at freeway speed, ambient temp was 65 F, so I'd assume the pack should be plenty warm at that point. I pulled into the SC with 25% SoC and plugged it. The SC ramped up to 90 kW but then immediately dropped to 78 kW before charging commenced.
SmartElectric
Active Member
If your cooling fans aren't running hard, the battery is absolutely not up to peak temperature that would unleash the highest supercharging speeds. Driving on the highway even at 150 km/h (50% higher than my local highway speed limit) only uses 23 kW of power in a Model S. 23 kW is not nearly enough power draw to require significant cooling, whereas repeated 250 kW draw and 60 kW regen will absolutely warm a battery pack pretty quickly, about 1 minute of this accelerate/regen prior to arriving at a supercharger has a better change of resulting in what I see, namely, peak supercharging rates (90 kW on my car at 20% SOC) and a set of screaming fans cooling the battery once you plug in.
If your supercharger was on a nav route we can safetly discard "not warm enough" from both the pack being nav-preheated by recent updates and by the heat of driving 90minutes (I've observed this allows the pack to get TOO hot, sometimes to the point of reducing AC to cool it more, just cruising at freeway speeds).
Plus, of course, chargegate has been year-long and it's not like uddenly the world is colder this year - in fact it's the warmest on record.
Chaserr - do you know which update adds the NAV-PREHEAT on a Model S? Our Model 3 always says Preconditioning Battery when there is a SuC on the NAV route. I have not seen any notification on our Model S which is at 2019.32.12.7. It almost feels like the battery heater in our Model S doesn't work or not at least not properly. The Model 3's don't even have battery heaters, just use the engine heat, and they work fine. Just looking for insight.
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