Tesla CHAdeMo Update

[VolkerP]

While I agree that Tesla should do the best thing for all of their customers, we must look at this from a point of limited resources. Only a small number of owners faces daily commutes of +150 or even 200 miles. CHAdeMO charging for road trips is only possible where CHAdeMO charging stations are placed along highways. I understand that this is the case only in WA+OR, where the latest Tesla Superchargers where opened up last week. Again, small number of customers. Fast charging at your destination sounds nice, but remember that you are obliged to move the car ASAP to free a scarce resource. That could be rather impractical or inconvenient, because you want to spend your time at the destination (e.g. restaurant, movie, Disney land), not tending towards your car.

And as soon as Tesla will make a CHAdeMO adapter available, there will be whining about cost, availability, bulkiness, reliability of operation with different CHAdeMO vendors, acquiring a means of payment for the loads of different CHAdeMO operators, and so on.

I'd rather prefer Tesla stays focused on expanding the supercharger network.

 

[metafor]

The point is that a fairly large CHAdeMO network is already up. As far as cost to benefits ratio for its customers, providing an adapter seems to be higher than a new Supercharger location. And once it's done, it's done.

I'm in the middle of planning a road trip from SF bay to Portland using highway 1 and then 5. Having access to the plethora of CHAdeMO chargers would be a huge boon.

 

[brianman]

I understand that this is the case only in WA+OR.... Again, small number of customers.

Well, I tried to help but you guys refuse to let it go so here we go around the track again.

For discussion purposes, I'll briefly grant "only in WA+OR". Given that that are roughly 15,000 Model S vehicles in customer hands and (as I understand it) there are probably 1,000 - 1,500 Model S vehicles in WA state alone.

Are you saying that 7-10% of the customer base is "small number of customers"? If that's the criteria then there's a whole lot of stuff Tesla shouldn't be "wasting" its precious time and resources on. Heck for that matter they should totally screw over Signature customers blindly because they're already "small" and diminishing every day. Right?

 

[AmpedRealtor]

CHAdeMO would also be valuable to those who do not have permanent garages - i.e., inner city dwellers. They need some way to keep their vehicles charged and ready to go while parked on the street or in a carport. Having high speed DC charging available locally would make this a non-issue. It's just an adapter, my goodness! A $12 Billion car company should be able to spare a few people to design a CHAdeMO adapter for a car that it's been shipping for a year now.

 

[Rowlock]

CHAdeMO would also be valuable to those who do not have permanent garages - i.e., inner city dwellers. They need some way to keep their vehicles charged and ready to go while parked on the street or in a carport. Having high speed DC charging available locally would make this a non-issue. It's just an adapter, my goodness! A $12 Billion car company should be able to spare a few people to design a CHAdeMO adapter for a car that it's been shipping for a year now.

I'm in approximately that situation, which is a big part of why I'd like an adaptor.

You make it sound simple, like they've dropped the ball already. But bear in mind, it's not just a matter of making a plug the right shape. This isn't like the J1772 plug adaptor. CHAdeMO is a completely alien protocol, and any converter will need complicated electronics inside to fool the charger into thinking it's running the show, while actually allowing the car to control the charging session transparently in the background.

Not a trivial engineering task, when you consider that a mistake in the adaptor coding could fry your battery pack, cause a fire, etc etc.

 

[PhilBa]

I have to laugh when I hear people trying to characterize what kind and where chargers are needed. 100thMonkey (would love to hear the orgin of that name...) pretty much hit it - need anything and everything. There are parts of washington and oregon that I love to visit but are going to be a challenge, especially without a chademo adapter. As such, Tesla should be aggressively getting as many adapters done as possible. Tesla should definitely not be thinking "how many more MSs could we sell with X or Y adapter". Because the better the charging story, the more cars they will sell.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I have to laugh when I hear people trying to characterize what kind and where chargers are needed. 100thMonkey (would love to hear the orgin of that name...) pretty much hit it - need anything and everything. There are parts of washington and oregon that I love to visit but are going to be a challenge, especially without a chademo adapter. As such, Tesla should be aggressively getting as many adapters done as possible. Tesla should definitely not be thinking "how many more MSs could we sell with X or Y adapter". Because the better the charging story, the more cars they will sell.

Agreed! Tesla should give us every option and let us decide what is best for each of us. I am sure it is not technically trivial to design a CHAdeMO adapter, I understand there are some control issues and hurdles. I also understand that next year's Leaf and upcoming BMW i3 will be using the SAE Combo plug. So yet another standard is coming.

 

[dsm363]

Agreed! Tesla should give us every option and let us decide what is best for each of us. I am sure it is not technically trivial to design a CHAdeMO adapter, I understand there are some control issues and hurdles. I also understand that next year's Leaf and upcoming BMW i3 will be using the SAE Combo plug. So yet another standard is coming.

Next year's leaf is going to abandon the CHAdeMO plug for combo SAE plug? If so then I think you may see future DC quick chargers supporting that standard instead of CHAdeMO or even current ones getting converted assuming Nissan provides an adapter for current Leaf owners. Tesla still needs to provide the adapter for current installations.

 

[evmile]

Agreed! Tesla should give us every option and let us decide what is best for each of us. I am sure it is not technically trivial to design a CHAdeMO adapter, I understand there are some control issues and hurdles. I also understand that next year's Leaf and upcoming BMW i3 will be using the SAE Combo plug. So yet another standard is coming.

What is the source of this information. Every time I ask Nissan (two weeks ago at the Sunnyvale research center) they say no they are sticking with Chademo.

 

[100thMonkey]

The origin of 100th Monkey: "The claim is that unidentified scientists were conducting a study of macaque monkeys on the Japanese island of Koshima in 1952. These scientists purportedly observed that some of these monkeys learned to wash sweet potatoes, and gradually this new behavior spread through the younger generation of monkeys—in the usual fashion, through observation and repetition. the researchers claim to have observed that once a critical number of monkeys was reached—the so-called hundredth monkey—this previously learned behavior instantly and unexplicably spread across the water to monkeys on nearby islands."

After a period of great struggle by EV advocates, one day there will suddenly be EV's everywhere... be the 100thMonkey in your neighborhood! :~)

I have to laugh when I hear people trying to characterize what kind and where chargers are needed. 100thMonkey (would love to hear the orgin of that name...) pretty much hit it - need anything and everything. There are parts of washington and oregon that I love to visit but are going to be a challenge, especially without a chademo adapter. As such, Tesla should be aggressively getting as many adapters done as possible. Tesla should definitely not be thinking "how many more MSs could we sell with X or Y adapter". Because the better the charging story, the more cars they will sell.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Lots of crazy assumptions up there!!! ^^^^

CHAdeMO will be the DOMINANT world standard for the foreseeable future. Nissan, Mitsubishi, Kia, Peugeot, Citroën, etc will continue to use the standard that is the same throughout the world.

Yes, the Frankenplug folks will keep throwing out hints how their currently ZERO operational public stations and ZERO cars is taking over. Ya, sure it will.

CHAdeMO is at about 3000 stations worldwide, and over 200 in the USA.

Where most of the electric cars are in the USA is where most of the CHAdeMO stations are. It's just not rocket science, folks.

 

[dsm363]

Lots of crazy assumptions up there!!! ^^^^

CHAdeMO will be the DOMINANT world standard for the foreseeable future. Nissan, Mitsubishi, Kia, Peugeot, Citroën, etc will continue to use the standard that is the same throughout the world.

Yes, the Frankenplug folks will keep throwing out hints how their currently ZERO operational public stations and ZERO cars is taking over. Ya, sure it will.

CHAdeMO is at about 3000 stations worldwide, and over 200 in the USA.

Where most of the electric cars are in the USA is where most of the CHAdeMO stations are. It's just not rocket science, folks.

Interesting analysis.
CHAdeMO - EVs compatible with CHAdeMO
How many of these cars are sold in mass numbers the US? Tesla has sold over half the number of Model Ss as Leafs in the US and started 2 years after Nissan did.

Anyway, this tread is about the adapter. Unless BMW, Mercedes. Audi, GM, Ford, Chrysler and many other manufactures adopt CHAdeMO I'm not sure it will become the world standard. There will likely be more than one 'standard'. It will likely be many years before any of this is decided in the US market though so having the adapter until things get sorted out will still be valuable.

 

[Eberhard]

Hope that Daimler and BMW are opting the Tesla plug. its compatible for the protocol and therefore easy to adopt

 

[PaceyWhitter]

Hope that Daimler and BMW are opting the Tesla plug. its compatible for the protocol and therefore easy to adopt

As said above, BMW is opting for the frankenplug.

 

[jerry33]

You know I never understand this "drive around" argument. Maybe I'm different, but when I'm visiting some place I don't drive a hundred miles a day, I do that when I'm getting there.

When I drive to and stay in Lincoln, I also go about every other day to Omaha. That's a bit more than a 100 mile round trip. Sure not everyone does this, but I don't think it's all that uncommon either.

 

[PhilBa]

When I drive to and stay in Lincoln, I also go about every other day to Omaha. That's a bit more than a 100 mile round trip. Sure not everyone does this, but I don't think it's all that uncommon either.

I think it's a lot more common than people are suggesting. If I drive 500 miles to visit a city, I'm probably going to take side/day trips to various attractions. Not everything is within a few miles of each other. Even if they are only 25-50 miles away from where I'm staying, it adds up pretty quick.

 

[wcalvin]

Just had an unanticipated extra hundred miles last weekend on San Juan Island, largely due to giving a friend a ride in the MS. The NEMA 14-50 I'd located on the island in advance turned out to be tied up by a NOAA research instrumentation trailer. Made it back to the Burlington WA supercharger with 15 miles left.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I am so sorry, my information about Nissan abandoning CHAdeMO is INCORRECT. I read an article over at Inside EVs, looked away when my dogs made some noises, and when I looked back I thought I picked up from where I left off but apparently I started reading someone's comment on the article rather than the article itself. It was the comment that asserted Nissan and others would be abandoning CHAdeMO next year.

It's time to get a bigger screen... LOL

 

[stopcrazypp]

Interesting analysis.
CHAdeMO - EVs compatible with CHAdeMO
How many of these cars are sold in mass numbers the US? Tesla has sold over half the number of Model Ss as Leafs in the US and started 2 years after Nissan did.

Anyway, this tread is about the adapter. Unless BMW, Mercedes. Audi, GM, Ford, Chrysler and many other manufactures adopt CHAdeMO I'm not sure it will become the world standard. There will likely be more than one 'standard'. It will likely be many years before any of this is decided in the US market though so having the adapter until things get sorted out will still be valuable.

Same observations I made in other threads. CHAdeMO's dominance in the US is far from certain. Japan it's certain and some non-EU European countries it's fairly certain though. It's all down to how long the Leaf can hold its crown.

As said above, BMW is opting for the frankenplug.

True, but the Model S connector for Europe is extremely similar to the Mennekes plug, just with deeper pins for DC charging (instead of two dedicated DC pins). If Tesla proposes it to the IEC, they can still have a chance of getting it approved before the European version of the DC plug is in wide usage.

 

[FairFrank]

In EUROPE Mennekes Type 2 is the standard for AC and CHAdeMO for DC. In my Dutch area (150 km circle) there are tens of CHAdeMO DC fastloaders ( 50 - 80 kW) and NO Tesla Superchargers at all. It would be unbelievable if there 1) comes no CHAdeMO adapter or - even better - 2) Tesla Superchargers switch to CHAdeMO. Didn't they learn from the Philips Video2000 marketing case?

My best guess is, Tesla is monitoring the European developments to determine who will be the winner: The Tesla station network with swap and Superchargers (NONE build yet) or the CHAdeMO DC network (over HUNDRED build yet). They want to control the whole chain. However, psychology demonstrates that front runners don't understand you oft only can win the race by hooking up with a lagger.