Tesla YANKED FSD option without notice - Class Action lawsuit? Any Lawyers here? [Resolved]

[BPeter]

Ultimately I think there will have to be a legislative solution of some sort (sadly). After all, if you bought a used car from a dealer, and a week later, someone from (say) GM turned up and pulled off some parts and took them away, you would be (rightly) furious. Similarly, then if a car has a software option on it, then, yep its on the car for good, unless Tesla take ownership of the car and adjust it before resale.

Tesla no doubt will try to treat the software stack more like retail software, which you never technically "own" in the first place (what you own is a restricted license to use the software). But I dont think that will fly long term.

The thing with software is its a license to use the software, not the actual software you are buying.

Tesla really just needs to fix their process so that this doesn't even happen (FSD removed before being auctioned). So many issues with Tesla come down to communication and broken processes that take WAY too long to fix, even though they pride themselves on being agile.

 

[Tam]

...It seems to be the policy now that Tesla will remove these features when they auction off cars. The dealers buying them should know this by now, but they either don't or don't care...

It's a wild wild west if consumers cannot read Tesla policy. Tesla has been verbally and also by chatting saying that FSD stays with the car VIN but that is not true in this thread and also on your example above.

If FSD does not stay with the VIN, then say that it does not. Why is it so hard to post that policy on the new car / used car consumer advocate page? Why hide it?

 

[drtimhill]

The thing with software is its a license to use the software, not the actual software you are buying.

Tesla really just needs to fix their process so that this doesn't even happen (FSD removed before being auctioned). So many issues with Tesla come down to communication and broken processes that take WAY too long to fix, even though they pride themselves on being agile.

Er, yeah ... that's exactly what I said.

 

[Tam]

The thing with software is its a license to use the software, not the actual software you are buying...

So what will that mean?

When I buy software, they would give me a license code so I can use it on a computer. Pay once good forever: Even when I sell it to someone else.

That sounds like the concept that Tesla has been saying: buy once and the FSD stays with the VIN forever even when it's sold to someone else.

If that is not the case then, buy once, the FSD follows the owner and it transfers to another Tesla that I will own in the future.

 

[Knightshade]

Tesla really just needs to fix their process so that this doesn't even happen (FSD removed before being auctioned). So many issues with Tesla come down to communication and broken processes that take WAY too long to fix, even though they pride themselves on being agile.

That's the entire issue.

Tesla internal IT and communication is TERRIBLE.

Elon made a big point on the last earnings call about how all their internal IT stuff is self-written, they don't use any commercial enterprise management software.

And it really shows.

And not in a good way.


My understanding of the well publicized story on this was Tesla took back ownership of the vehicle and flagged it for FSD removal. Which is ENTIRELY legal and within their rights to do... But only removed it on the back end.

Then it went to auction only a day or so after they took ownership, and was sold at auction- the dealer who bought it saw it still had FSD since the back end hadn't forced an immediate update to the car before going to auction.

The dealer then sold it to a customer based on it having FSD.... The car then updated OTA, removing FSD (while the dealer still had it and hadn't delivered to customer BTW)- dealer told customer it was probably a bug and he should take the car anyway and make a service appointment to fix.

Buyer contacts Tesla, who checks their system and only sees it was flagged for no FSD when Tesla owned it, and says no FSD for you.

Big media stink, more details of the timing come out, Tesla realizes their internal systems didn't immediately talk to each other, and restores FSD.


But it was incompetence of their systems, not malice or deception, that removed it in the first place.

 

[JRP3]

That sounds like the concept that Tesla has been saying: buy once and the FSD stays with the VIN forever even when it's sold to someone else.

I think that's the case, unless the car goes back to Tesla at some point. Then it becomes Tesla's property again and they can do whatever they want to it. The problem seems to be them not removing things before they sell it again and then trying to do it after the fact.

 

[Tam]

I think that's the case, unless the car goes back to Tesla at some point. Then it becomes Tesla's property again and they can do whatever they want to it. The problem seems to be them not removing things before they sell it again and then trying to do it after the fact.

Agreed! If the car is back at Tesla ownership then it can put on any fancy wheels or standard wheels it wants. But once it leaves Tesla's parking lot to another ownership (private consumer or non-Tesla dealer), what I see is what I got. If it comes with fancy wheels, that's the price I agreed. If I see standard wheels, that's the price I agreed.

Once I paid for it and own it, if Tesla wants to take the wheels back, it should go to the standard legal channel to claim ownership of the wheels and let the court approve a repossession process. That's the same with FSD. It should be not like OJ Simpson's repossession process.

 

[Knightshade]

Agreed! If the car is back at Tesla ownership then it can put on any fancy wheels or standard wheels it wants. But once it leaves Tesla's parking lot to another ownership (private consumer or non-Tesla dealer), what I see is what I got. If it comes with fancy wheels, that's the price I agreed. If I see standard wheels, that's the price I agreed.

Once I paid for it and own it, if Tesla wants to take the wheels back, it should go to the standard legal channel to claim ownership of the wheels and let the court approve a repossession process. That's the same with FSD. It should be not like OJ Simpson's repossession process.

The problem is to remove the wheels is one step, and done physically to the car.

To remove FSD is two steps, that aren't directly connected, and don't happen at the same time.

Step 1) Tesla flags on the back end to remove. Which they apparently did during their ownership of the car in the well known case.

Step 2) The actual config update gets downloaded by the car. Which didn't happen till after it was sold at auction.

The disconnect between 1 and 2 is what needs fixing.

Like the system shouldn't permit the vehicle to LEAVE Teslas possession until a "sync current features/state" step happens between back end and vehicle- and once it does the back end should be LOCKED until vehicle is assigned to a new owner to prevent Tesla making any further changes since the last sync.

But since Teslas internal IT is cobbled together homegrown stuff that doesn't seem to talk to each other well or have any checks/balances on anything it doesn't happen.


Even worse- we know they're CAPABLE of this near-instant sync, because when you buy the acceleration boost via the app it appears on the car in minutes or seconds after doing it.

Because they specifically configured THAT to update the car right away. Just not other things.

 

[MS-Alec]

This right here.
It seems to be the policy now that Tesla will remove these features when they auction off cars. The dealers buying them should know this by now, but they either don't or don't care.

That said, there is no reason this should even be happening. Tesla knows what cars they are auctioning. It should be very simple for them to just throw those VINs into a list and disable all software features right before the auction begins. That way they'll never reach Vroom or Carvana or anyone else with those features enabled.

If the sale agreement from Tesla to Vroom does not have FSD listed, then Vroom is very likely to be the one on the hook for the feature being removed, even if Tesla is doing it in a very annoying way.

The problem is - almost all auctioned cars sold AS-IS, therefore removing anything from them after the sale is unethical and probably illegal.
Tesla could prevent the whole situation just doing that what you have said - throw those VINs into a list and disable all software features right before the auction begins. Unfortunately, they are lazy/ineffective or just simply do not care.

 

[clammy77]

The problem is - almost all auctioned cars sold AS-IS, therefore removing anything from them after the sale is unethical and probably illegal.
Tesla could prevent the whole situation just doing that what you have said - throw those VINs into a list and disable all software features right before the auction begins. Unfortunately, they are lazy/ineffective or just simply do not care.

Hi there, I am having the same exact issue as you. I bought the car with EAP/FSD, but after buying it for a few months, the features were removed. I also didn't think it was a huge deal since logging into my account, I can see the EAP item. However, after communicating with Tesla, they are very stiff and refused to solve the issue. Do you have a contact window or someone I can speak to to resolve this issue? I, like you, have been battling with the laziness of their service center workers.

 

[Chaserr]

Take everything to your attorney and have him serve Tesla notice. You should be OK within a week of Tesla legal getting notified.

 

[gwxfer]

Hi there, I am having the same exact issue as you. I bought the car with EAP/FSD, but after buying it for a few months, the features were removed. I also didn't think it was a huge deal since logging into my account, I can see the EAP item. However, after communicating with Tesla, they are very stiff and refused to solve the issue. Do you have a contact window or someone I can speak to to resolve this issue? I, like you, have been battling with the laziness of their service center workers.

What car you have?

 

[ntpphong]

I'm in the process of purchasing a used 2017 Model X from vroom as well, and reading through all the 30 pages I believe I will have to have a serious talk with vroom verifying the FSD before taking delivery. I asked the Vroom rep to email me the picture of the software menu where it shows FSD and Premium connection as included in package, but the car's software was still on 2020.20.17 which is about 4 months old and the current update (2020.48.12.1) is ready to be installed.
My point is if I have them update the car's software and the FSD/Premium connection still remains after the update, then I should be good to go and it will transfer to me?
On Vroom's website where the car is listed they do have a screenshot of the NoA/Summons enabled. Would Vroom be liable if that feature were to be removed after I take ownership of the car?

Thanks.

 

[brkaus]

@ntpphong no way I know to guarantee 100%. Any idea where they got the car from?

Keep in mind that the horror stories here are the minority. But good to be careful.

 

[ntpphong]

@ntpphong no way I know to guarantee 100%. Any idea where they got the car from?

Keep in mind that the horror stories here are the minority. But good to be careful.

I believe it was a lease return. I'm emailing the Vroom people to make sure it will come with FSD.

 

[dark cloud]

I'm in the process of purchasing a used 2017 Model X from vroom as well, and reading through all the 30 pages I believe I will have to have a serious talk with vroom verifying the FSD before taking delivery.
.

I am no lawyer, but don't rely on talk, as it won't hold up if you need to escalate legally.

I believe it was a lease return. I'm emailing the Vroom people to make sure it will come with FSD.

If it were me, yes, get it in writing. On the sales contract I would insist it says words to the effect of " this car has and will continue to have full self driving." If not the price should be $10,000 lower, right?

 

[brkaus]

I believe it was a lease return. I'm emailing the Vroom people to make sure it will come with FSD.

Lease return would imply (to me) that it went back to Tesla? Most leases are Tesla sourced so Tesla would have received it and put it out to auction. If that’s the case, watch out.

I agree with @dark cloud Get it in writing.

 

[JRP3]

Could you contact Tesla with the VIN and see what they say about the vehicle?

 

[brkaus]

Could you contact Tesla with the VIN and see what they say about the vehicle?

I’d have vroom do it. The purchase contract is with vroom.

 

[Battpower]

Definately get written confirmation from seller, not just 2nd or 3rd hand passed on by them. The point is that they are valuing / selling the car based on given specification and that is the basis of your contract with them.

Although not likely, Tesla can try and change the spec at any time, potentially leaving you to fight your case with Tesla too. In such a case, having a Tesla document confirming the spec would simplify things but I think Tesla will refuse to release any info on the car except to the current owner. Maybe they would disclose to vroom. In that case you would be making it a condition of purchase that vroom obtain and pass on to you confirmation that this vehicle has and will retain whatever features you are concerned about.