The future of CHADEMO in Australia

[evtricity]

Bloody Chademo plugs!

More dual charger sites made into effective single charger sites because 95% of EVs in Australia use CCS and probably 99% by 2025. Hopefully they will rip out the Chademo plug and cable and install CCS in the near future when they realise that their dual charging units almost never get used to charge two EVs.

Appreciate that Chademo plugs are an ARENA funding requirement but Ampol just made a massive profit and would have been better off to use all their own money and install dual CCS chargers to increase their utilisation. Perhaps Ampol wants it to fail or maybe their EV team have no idea what they're doing. It's hard to tell.

Amateur hour all round including from ARENA demanding Chademo plugs.

 

[positiv]

Bloody Chademo plugs!

More dual charger sites made into effective single charger sites because 95% of EVs in Australia use CCS and probably 99% by 2025. Hopefully they will rip out the Chademo plug and cable and install CCS in the near future when they realise that their dual charging units almost never get used to charge two EVs.

Appreciate that Chademo plugs are an ARENA funding requirement but Ampol just made a massive profit and would have been better off to use all their own money and install dual CCS chargers to increase their utilisation. Perhaps Ampol wants it to fail or maybe their EV team have no idea what they're doing. It's hard to tell.

Amateur hour all round including from ARENA demanding Chademo plugs.

Agree. Chademo is dead. Ampol dedicating 50% of their plugs to a dying charging standard is mental. The Nissan Leaf is the only BEV left using Chademo and that's being phased out.

 

[positiv]

400V Car would be limited to around 100kw

It's purely used to gain access to Arena Funding.
They know its dying and have designed the chargers with the ability to switch out to CCS2

I wonder what the funding rules say about that, because no one is going to maintain Chademo ports if they’re never used.

 

[RareEarth]

I still have a Chademo adapter and keep it for trips in case the CCS plug is broken at a single charger site. Use it occasionally but the Chademo plugs are usually full of spider webs and clearly not used that often.

 

[moa999]

Only useful for those with a Tesla S/X though.

Think part of the issue is that afaik there is no swapout CCS2 available for Leafs - both the current fleet on Australia and the grey imports that keep arriving. It's still a reasonable number of cars.

Possibly Arena should allow people to move to dual CCS2 where an geographic area already has alternatives (Eg. Alexandria has Chargefox East Village and South Eveleigh nearby)

 

[Chuq]

I'll copy and paste my post from earlier in the thread!

----

I've had this discussion multiple times over the last week! I think continuing Chademo support at this time is fine for many reasons.

* Not many new cars use Chademo, but some do, many existing cars do and almost all grey imported cars do.
* The Chademo cars are typically much cheaper. If the cheaper EVs are excluded, particularly at sites which receive grants, it could be seen as inequitable use of government funds.
* The Chademo cars typically have lower range, so their use of public charging may be higher.
* Later on, when we build out increased capacity, it will be done based on the usage of existing chargers, and this will prefer CCS2. This is already happening with the latest NSW and Queensland government infrastructure buildout, which do not require Chademo. Tesla superchargers, when opened up to all vehicles, will be another CCS2 only network.
* The Future Fuels grant sites that Ampol are installing are primarily urban - and they're one of many. There will be another fast charging station by another vendor 5 km down the road. If these sites are deemed an inadequate configuration, drivers can avoid them.
* Ampol and Evie are meeting the grant requirements in different ways. Evie has four connectors (two of each) but only maximum 50 kW per car. Chargefox/EHT will use Kempower hardware, which is different again. It's good to have each grant recipient using a different implementation. Future site operators can see what works best.
* Some of these Ampol sites are going to have two units (support four cars simultaneously) which is well above and beyond the grant requirement.
* Even if the existing Chademo cables need to be replaced with CCS2 in the future (not likely IMHO - the balance will be altered by growth of new CCS, not removal of old Chademo) - it's only $1200 to swap the cable over.

To use another EV metaphor, consider the Victorian EV tax. Most people think we will need a road user charge in future - but not now, it's way too early. Similarly, getting rid of Chademo connectors should obviously happen eventually, but at the moment, it's too early.

 

[positiv]

More plugs is a good thing. However...

My concern with Chademo is that there is essentially only one new BEV on the market with it, and that vehicle is being phased out. Even Nissan is abandoning Chademo. That means the market is shrinking.
You can make an argument for supporting the existing driver base. But to make matters worse Chademo cars typically have high battery degradation and low maximum charge speeds (50kW). This really limits the usefulness of DC charging.
I also doubt that lower range EV's would do much DC fast charging, most lower range EV's are used around town and charged at home.

I reckon a better use of this money would be to convert Nissan Leafs to CCS2. Because eventually government funding will end and then Chademo will be gone.

 

[Vostok]

As a Nissan LEAF owner, I am sympathetic to the need for CHAdeMO for a while. Put yourselves in the shoes of someone who owns a CHAdeMO car and how you would feel if your future recharging options were unreasonably limited. I suspect you would not be very happy about it given the size of the investment you made in the car. It would also cripple its resale price.

I think that in lower density/regional areas, charging sites should have at least 1 CHAdeMO plug but the rest can be CCS2. In higher density / metro areas, there is more of an argument that as the CCS2 base grows, having 1 CHAdeMO plug per site is a waste. The current policy can be maintained until there are no more new CHAdeMO cars being sold in Australia, at which point new metro chargers and sites can be CCS2 only, and CHAdeMO is effectively capped.

Having said all that, I have DC charged my LEAF only twice in 8 years. With its limited range, we never take it on road trips and it spends its life being AC charged overnight. But the newer longer range LEAFs with CHAdeMO ports have a need for public DC charging so we need to respect that.

 

[aegidius]

We might have a situation where your Leaf can get a charge and all the CCS2 plugs are in use with a waiting queue.

 

[moa999]

But that's precisely the point.
At these single stall CCS2/CHAdeMO chargers, 90% of the time the second car will be CCS2 and waiting.

At Ampol Alexandria, in three visits I've once driven away (other car had just plugged in at 15%), once waiting 5min and once got a spot.

At the dual stall eg. Ampol Altona, think they are silly not to have one stall being dual-CCS2.
The likelihood of 3 CCS2/ 1 CHAdeMO is much higher than 2 CCS2 / 2 CHAdeMO.
(And I'd think they should be able to do this as presumably only one stall qualified for the funding)

 

[BreatheSafe]

I can understand the situation for Chademo but unfortunately one day the decision will need to be made to stop supporting DC chargers with Chademo.
When is that time is the question and to be honest I think in the metro area it probably has or is very, very close to it.
My bud has a Leaf he purchased 2nd hand and it has about 120km range. It is purely a city runabout charged at home and never has he DC charged. As suggested this is probably the norm.
Our government should force all imports to only support CCS2 and probably done that a while ago.

 

[positiv]

As a Nissan LEAF owner, I am sympathetic to the need for CHAdeMO for a while. Put yourselves in the shoes of someone who owns a CHAdeMO car and how you would feel if your future recharging options were unreasonably limited. I suspect you would not be very happy about it given the size of the investment you made in the car. It would also cripple its resale price.

I sympathise, but the blame lies with Nissan for sticking to an obscure charging connector and not providing an upgrade path to CCS2. I'd also argue that Nissan has done the most damage to resale price with unresolved thermal management issues and chargegate.

But the newer longer range LEAFs with CHAdeMO ports have a need for public DC charging so we need to respect that.

Err... no we don't. If you buy a long range EV with an obscure charging port, that's on you.

Besides who's going to use DC fast charging when the Leaf can't fast charge more than once a day without throttling?

 

[Chuq]

Remember every fast charging site we see today is among the first 1% of all fast charging sites we will probably see in Australia.

 

[meloccom]

Moderators note:
Created separate thread to move posts discussing the future of CHADEMO DC quick charging in Australia.

 

[Maximillan]

Moderators note:
Created separate thread to move posts discussing the future of CHADEMO DC quick charging in Australia.

Can we please call this thread the "Australian Death of CHADEMO Waiting Room"?

 

[Vostok]

Err... no we don't. If you buy a long range EV with an obscure charging port, that's on you.

That’s a bit… callous. I don’t think as EV drivers we can enjoy the benefits of public money being invested in DCFCs but at the same time begrudge part of that being spent on CHAdeMO plugs.

 

[positiv]

That’s a bit… callous. I don’t think as EV drivers we can enjoy the benefits of public money being invested in DCFCs but at the same time begrudge part of that being spent on CHAdeMO plugs.

Public money is the whole reason why I'm raising these concerns - public resources are scarce and need to be spent efficiently and appropriately.

My understanding is that Nissan has only sold ~2000 Leafs here. Of which not all of them have DC ports. And I'd be dubious of many early examples still being on the road with the poor battery longevity. It seems ill-considered to reserve a DC plug for them when there are 40,000 other EV's all using CCS2 who need charging and have to compete for the remaining charging plugs.

My other concern is that Chademo is effectively a "Nissan" plug. No other BEV uses it. What's happening here is that public dollars are being used to provide a charging network for a single car manufacturer. Surely that has got to raise eyebrows?

 

[Blue heaven]

Remember every fast charging site we see today is among the first 1% of all fast charging sites we will probably see in Australia.

Can we please call this thread the "Australian Death of CHADEMO Waiting Room"?

It could also be renamed “I want CHADEMO stopped due to self interest”.

 

[[Zombie]]

My understanding is that Nissan has only sold ~2000 Leafs here

And another 3000+ Teslas that didn't come with the CCS2 upgrade, so they either need to make an expensive modification to their car or borrow a CHAdeMO adapter from TOCA/TOCWA for longer trips.

Or use the one they've already got at great expense.

 

[Vostok]

Public money is the whole reason why I'm raising these concerns - public resources are scarce and need to be spent efficiently and appropriately.

Of course. But Governments also have a duty to not disadvantage minorities and to make reasonable efforts to support everyone in the target pool for any given initiative.

My understanding is that Nissan has only sold ~2000 Leafs here. Of which not all of them have DC ports. And I'd be dubious of many early examples still being on the road with the poor battery longevity. It seems ill-considered to reserve a DC plug for them when there are 40,000 other EV's all using CCS2 who need charging and have to compete for the remaining charging plugs.

I bought a Gen 1 Leaf in 2014 and from the start they all had CHAdeMO ports. Only some grey imports might not have them, it was an option overseas but not here, where DC charging was standard.

Mine is certainly still on the road (my wife drives it to work everyday) and I hope it is good for another 10 years.